From dcech at phpwerx.net  Tue Sep  1 08:13:08 2009
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:13:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net> <20090901022626.GA7920@panix.com>
	<4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>

Michael Southwell wrote:
> It's always seemed easier and clearer to me to use WHERE instead of JOIN
> (where the table IDs are indeed named id, and the foreign keys are
> labeled with the table name):
> 
> SELECT product_name, vendor_name
> FROM product, vendor
> WHERE vendor.id = product.vendor_id

The problem with this approach is that you end up with the join
conditions and the 'real' selection criteria mashed together.

SELECT product_name, vendor_name, category_name
FROM product, vendor, category
WHERE vendor.id = product.vendor_id AND price > 50 AND category.id =
product.category_id AND color = 'red'

vs

SELECT product_name, vendor_name, category_name
FROM product
JOIN vendor ON vendor.id = product.vendor_id
JOIN category ON category.id = product.category_id
WHERE price > 50 AND color = 'red'

I mixed up the order of the WHERE elements in the first query for the
purposes of this example, but I have seen stuff like that in production
code.

Dan


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Sep  1 08:58:29 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 08:58:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net>
	<20090901022626.GA7920@panix.com>	<4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com>
	<4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>
Message-ID: <p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@[192.168.1.102]>

At 8:13 AM -0400 9/1/09, Dan Cech wrote:
>Michael Southwell wrote:
>>  It's always seemed easier and clearer to me to use WHERE instead of JOIN
>>  (where the table IDs are indeed named id, and the foreign keys are
>>  labeled with the table name):
>>
>>  SELECT product_name, vendor_name
>>  FROM product, vendor
>>  WHERE vendor.id = product.vendor_id
>
>The problem with this approach is that you end up with the join
>conditions and the 'real' selection criteria mashed together.
>
>SELECT product_name, vendor_name, category_name
>FROM product, vendor, category
>WHERE vendor.id = product.vendor_id AND price > 50 AND category.id =
>product.category_id AND color = 'red'
>
>vs
>
>SELECT product_name, vendor_name, category_name
>FROM product
>JOIN vendor ON vendor.id = product.vendor_id
>JOIN category ON category.id = product.category_id
>WHERE price > 50 AND color = 'red'
>
>I mixed up the order of the WHERE elements in the first query for the
>purposes of this example, but I have seen stuff like that in production
>code.
>
>Dan

Dan:

I need to understand joins much better than I do now because the 
first query I fully understand while the second I don't.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From lists at enobrev.com  Tue Sep  1 09:11:48 2009
From: lists at enobrev.com (Mark Armendariz)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:11:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <1251721350.28247@coral.he.net>
References: <1251721350.28247@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <58f08dcf0909010611h2ee515abrd52476748dcd9c42@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Kristina D. H.
Anderson<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> I'm wondering why both phpMyAdmin and a number of the boilerplate PHP5
> frameworks' database code bases that I've seen all seem to be pushing
> the use of these delimiters around really, every single table and field
> name at all times, whether required or not. ?I hadn't given it much
> thought until this thread but the amount of them that I've seen over
> the past year or so has skyrocketed.

I think the idea is less a matter of promotion and more to let the
programmer use whatever table / column names they prefer regardless of
best practices.  If they do it for everything they don't have to
maintain a list of reserved words, which may very well change between
versions.

I personally prefer prefixing column names with table names
(person_first_name, location_city, etc) for clarity in complex joins,
but if I really had some reason to name a varchar (can't think of
why), I'd prefer that my tools would allow me to do so.

As for joins, I agree with Dan Cech regarding explicitly naming join
types, join fields, and join conditions in the join...on rather than
the conditions.

Mark


From dirn at dirnonline.com  Tue Sep  1 09:41:11 2009
From: dirn at dirnonline.com (Andy Dirnberger)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:41:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@192.168.1.102>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net> <20090901022626.GA7920@panix.com>
	<4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com> <4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>
	<p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <a35950460909010641r310da2acl7c5219d7774c5b70@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:58 AM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
>
> I need to understand joins much better than I do now because the first query I fully understand while the second I don't.
>

Think of the WHERE clause as the filter.  Use it to place restrictions
on what information is returned.

WHERE price > 50 AND color = 'red'

In the previous example you also had things like "vendor.id =
product.vendor_id."  You aren't using this to filter the data.  You
are using it to link up two tables.  This is where the JOIN clause
comes in.  For example, if you want a list of products with their
associated vendors:

FROM products
INNER JOIN vendors ON products.vendor_id = vendors.id -- or whatever
the fields are called

To also link to an optional promotion running for a product:

LEFT OUTER JOIN promotions ON products. promotion_id = promotions.id


From lists at nopersonal.info  Tue Sep  1 10:45:48 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:45:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4A9D339C.6010102@nopersonal.info>

> Essentially the thinking is that whenever you're processing code that 
> involves a lot of tables or a lot of queries (and returned results), 
> you end up with a bucketload of things named 'id' to handle.  
> 
> For instance imagine pulling out the contents of ten tables through ten 
> queries in one script, and all the ID fields are named, id.  Or if you 
> are doing a SELECT query where you are pulling stuff from 3 tables at 
> once and all three of them have a field that you need to reference 
> named, you guessed it, id in all three cases.  
> 
> The thinking being that if you don't name everything 'id' then you 
> won't make mistakes caused by everything being named 'id'.

Kristina, this is so true. The moment I started dealing with more than
one table in a query I realized that I was probably going to get myself
in trouble if my id names weren't more specific, so I decided to opt for
the more cautious route even if it meant more typing.

I was starting to waver in my resolve though, so I'm glad you explained
things so well as it'll keep me from getting lazy.

> The flipside of the argument is that it gets darn annoying always 
> forgetting whether or not in this table the ID is prodid or prod_id or 
> productid or whatever it may be...and you're looking it up for the 6th 
> time that day at 2 AM....

It's good to know the flipside--thanks.

> Or you inherit a database that's got fun ID field names like 
> cat_subCat_xtab_id and you start cursing the day that someone came up 
> with the silly idea that naming ID fields 'id' was a bad idea...When 
> you start muttering things like "this is a database, not the Iowa 
> Writer's Workshop" under your breath, you know it's time to leave and 
> get that cold beer.

LOL

> And you've got to be consistent with your own database design.  If you 
> decide now to go with prod_id, stick with that, don't all of a sudden 
> start to think that the underscore is "so last year", and start to use 
> prodid...so you don't get confused between databases.  I've been guilty 
> of getting bored with using the same old, same old field names over and 
> over and making my life more difficult than it has to be...

You know, a couple of times I switched my naming conventions and it was
a PITA, so I can definitely see the wisdom in your advice. I finally
decided to just stick with a underscore as it's second nature to me
after all my years of front end production.

Bev



From lists at nopersonal.info  Tue Sep  1 10:52:40 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:52:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net>	<20090901022626.GA7920@panix.com>	<4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com>	<4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>
	<p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <4A9D3538.7000908@nopersonal.info>

tedd wrote:
> I need to understand joins much better than I do now

Same here. It's extremely helpful to see all these comparisons.

Bev



From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Sep  1 10:55:36 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:55:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <a35950460909010641r310da2acl7c5219d7774c5b70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net>
	<20090901022626.GA7920@panix.com>	<4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com>
	<4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>	<p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@192.168.1.102>
	<a35950460909010641r310da2acl7c5219d7774c5b70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080fc6c2e1a49e7f@[192.168.1.102]>

At 9:41 AM -0400 9/1/09, Andy Dirnberger wrote:
>On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:58 AM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
>>
>>  I need to understand joins much better than I do now because the 
>>first query I fully understand while the second I don't.
>>
>
>Think of the WHERE clause as the filter.  Use it to place restrictions
>on what information is returned.
>
>WHERE price > 50 AND color = 'red'

I fully understand WHERE, it's understanding how JOIN's simplify things.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Tue Sep  1 11:38:52 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:38:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <p0624080fc6c2e1a49e7f@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net>	<20090901022626.GA7920@panix.com>	<4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com>	<4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>	<p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@192.168.1.102>	<a35950460909010641r310da2acl7c5219d7774c5b70@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624080fc6c2e1a49e7f@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <4A9D400C.6020804@gmx.net>

tedd wrote:
> At 9:41 AM -0400 9/1/09, Andy Dirnberger wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:58 AM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  I need to understand joins much better than I do now because the 
>>> first query I fully understand while the second I don't.
>>>
>>
>> Think of the WHERE clause as the filter.  Use it to place restrictions
>> on what information is returned.
>>
>> WHERE price > 50 AND color = 'red'
> 
> I fully understand WHERE, it's understanding how JOIN's simplify things.
> 

Well, there are different types of joins. The Where join always gives an inner 
join - says someone who didn't really get joins either. Using the join makes 
things to be more systematic, which will help a lot when you join across a 
dozen tables and use Where filters that are based on the result of other 
queries. It might just be that we never came across such complicated queries, 
which exposed us never to any cases where using something else than the WHERE 
join would make much difference.
You may want to check out the pages about SQL join on W3C schools.

David


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 11:46:27 2009
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:46:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <p0624080fc6c2e1a49e7f@192.168.1.102>
References: <1251767182.2728@coral.he.net> <20090901022626.GA7920@panix.com>
	<4A9C9606.8030309@nyphp.com> <4A9D0FD4.3090706@phpwerx.net>
	<p0624080ac6c2ca732f28@192.168.1.102>
	<a35950460909010641r310da2acl7c5219d7774c5b70@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624080fc6c2e1a49e7f@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40909010846h1a8b1f7r8408af70164d5c1c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:55 AM, tedd<tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
>
> I fully understand WHERE, it's understanding how JOIN's simplify things.

1. Joins make your sql more readable (and are a substatement to the
FROM clause, and should be indented)

2.  When you use the WHERE clause, it is easy to accidentally do a
cartesian join, and select bazillions of rows during development.

3. You can change to a LEFT join as needed.  Since you can't do a left
join in the where clause, you might as well use the JOIN syntax
everywhere.

Consider
SELECT user.name, COUNT(post.post_id) as post_count
FROM user
  LEFT JOIN post USING user_id
GROUP BY 1

vs

SELECT user.name, COUNT(post.post_id) as post_count
FROM user
  INNER JOIN post USING user_id
GROUP BY 1

The second one can be rewritten using a WHERE clause, but the first one can't.

People who don't understand the first query, end up writing stuff like:

SELECT user.name, (SELECT COUNT(*) from post WHERE
post.user_id=user.user_id) as post_count
FROM user

-john campbell


From yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com  Thu Sep  3 09:54:34 2009
From: yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com (Yitzchak Schaffer)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:54:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Assessing own skill level for jobs,
	was nyphp-jobs Junior PHP Dev
Message-ID: <4A9FCA9A.6030908@gmx.com>

Hi all,

I periodically read through PHP job ads that call for various levels of 
expertise, without a solid understanding what the expectations are.  I 
come from outside the world of formal IT education, largely self-taught 
in coding and server admin, so for one thing I may be missing patches of 
assumed "core" knowledge.

Does anyone have suggestions for guidelines or app design/code samples 
of what's considered appropriate for an 
Entry-Level/Junior/Senior/OOP/whatever PHP position, or 
mistakes/shortcomings that may be typical or unacceptable at these levels?

Many thanks,

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaffer at tourolib.org


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 12:22:50 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 12:22:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Assessing own skill level for jobs,
	was nyphp-jobs 	Junior PHP Dev
In-Reply-To: <4A9FCA9A.6030908@gmx.com>
References: <4A9FCA9A.6030908@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60909030922l4c7f689eqcbf1ed747b57eae8@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a Rails-based perspective, and a good one:

    http://pragmaticstudio.com/dreyfus

This can easily be mapped to PHP.

-- Mitch

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Yitzchak
Schaffer<yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I periodically read through PHP job ads that call for various levels of
> expertise, without a solid understanding what the expectations are. ?I come
> from outside the world of formal IT education, largely self-taught in coding
> and server admin, so for one thing I may be missing patches of assumed
> "core" knowledge.
>
> Does anyone have suggestions for guidelines or app design/code samples of
> what's considered appropriate for an Entry-Level/Junior/Senior/OOP/whatever
> PHP position, or mistakes/shortcomings that may be typical or unacceptable
> at these levels?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> --
> Yitzchak Schaffer
> Systems Manager
> Touro College Libraries
> 33 West 23rd Street
> New York, NY 10010
> Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
> Fax (212) 627-3197
> Email yitzchak.schaffer at tourolib.org
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From d at ingk.com  Thu Sep  3 13:10:33 2009
From: d at ingk.com (Damion Hankejh)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 12:10:33 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Assessing own skill level for jobs,
	was nyphp-jobs 	Junior PHP Dev
In-Reply-To: <330532b60909030922l4c7f689eqcbf1ed747b57eae8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9FCA9A.6030908@gmx.com>
	<330532b60909030922l4c7f689eqcbf1ed747b57eae8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c0a185de0909031010l2a52d6d5oefbfe330d3a8fba7@mail.gmail.com>

Wow -- that's a great reference.  Thanks for sharing, Mitch.

The Dreyfus novice->expert method is nicely demonstrated at TED (albeit with
classical music, though not entirely unrelated mathematically)
http://www.ted.com/talks/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html

---
Damion Hankejh | hankejh.com



On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle at gmail.com>wrote:

> Here's a Rails-based perspective, and a good one:
>
>    http://pragmaticstudio.com/dreyfus
>
> This can easily be mapped to PHP.
>
> -- Mitch
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Yitzchak
> Schaffer<yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I periodically read through PHP job ads that call for various levels of
> > expertise, without a solid understanding what the expectations are.  I
> come
> > from outside the world of formal IT education, largely self-taught in
> coding
> > and server admin, so for one thing I may be missing patches of assumed
> > "core" knowledge.
> >
> > Does anyone have suggestions for guidelines or app design/code samples of
> > what's considered appropriate for an
> Entry-Level/Junior/Senior/OOP/whatever
> > PHP position, or mistakes/shortcomings that may be typical or
> unacceptable
> > at these levels?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Yitzchak Schaffer
> > Systems Manager
> > Touro College Libraries
> > 33 West 23rd Street
> > New York, NY 10010
> > Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
> > Fax (212) 627-3197
> > Email yitzchak.schaffer at tourolib.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
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From mangesh at ascellent.co.in  Fri Sep  4 04:12:28 2009
From: mangesh at ascellent.co.in (Mangesh Sathe)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 13:42:28 +0530
Subject: [nycphp-talk] website loading speed issue
Message-ID: <dd125add0909040112u16a0dd89r2d992d30b63465e9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone ,
This is Mangesh Sathe,India..

i have developed one erp website.

As it has large amount of data it takes so much time to load.
i have  optimised sql queries as well as php code.

Any suggestion or Anyone knows ,how can i solve this problem?

any help would b appretiated

-- 
Thanks & Regards,
Mangesh Sathe
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From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Sep  4 04:31:48 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 04:31:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] website loading speed issue
In-Reply-To: <dd125add0909040112u16a0dd89r2d992d30b63465e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909040424500.22291-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Mangesh Sathe wrote:

> As it has large amount of data it takes so much time to load.
> i have  optimised sql queries as well as php code.
> 
> Any suggestion or Anyone knows ,how can i solve this problem?

You may as well ask the meaning of life - this is a big subject and there 
are many many approaches and techniques, but we need more details to even 
begin to help.

Is it the server-side PHP that is slow or your frontend code? Do you use 
any kind of caching? Are you using a templating library? Is this 
'straight' PHP or are you using a framework / library? What kind of 
database? Which version of PHP? Have you looked at any profiling tools? If 
you're using Firebug, have you looked at using the YSlow extension to look  
at frontend performance?

That's a good list to start with...

-- 
Aj.



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Sep  4 06:59:46 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 03:59:46 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] website loading speed issue
Message-ID: <1252061986.13068@coral.he.net>

Hi Mangesh,

Is this the same website you posted about a week or two back where you 
were using a DSN to connect to an Access database?

Kristina

> On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Mangesh Sathe wrote:
> 
> > As it has large amount of data it takes so much time to load.
> > i have  optimised sql queries as well as php code.
> > 
> > Any suggestion or Anyone knows ,how can i solve this problem?
> 
> You may as well ask the meaning of life - this is a big subject and 
there 
> are many many approaches and techniques, but we need more details to 
even 
> begin to help.
> 
> Is it the server-side PHP that is slow or your frontend code? Do you 
use 
> any kind of caching? Are you using a templating library? Is this 
> 'straight' PHP or are you using a framework / library? What kind of 
> database? Which version of PHP? Have you looked at any profiling 
tools? If 
> you're using Firebug, have you looked at using the YSlow extension to 
look  
> at frontend performance?
> 
> That's a good list to start with...
> 
> -- 
> Aj.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 





From ramons at gmx.net  Fri Sep  4 07:09:40 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 07:09:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] website loading speed issue
In-Reply-To: <dd125add0909040112u16a0dd89r2d992d30b63465e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dd125add0909040112u16a0dd89r2d992d30b63465e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA0F574.5000309@gmx.net>

Mangesh Sathe wrote:
> As it has large amount of data it takes so much time to load.
> i have  optimised sql queries as well as php code. 
>  
> Any suggestion or Anyone knows ,how can i solve this problem?

Get a faster web server with a bigger pipe? Do you self-host or have it 
hosted? Which system are your unning it on? Which web server do you use on 
which OS?

Did you strip down code and queries? I mean, make a decision if you really 
need to run all these queries and all that code. Did you run an profiler 
against the database and your code? What exactly is slow?

Do you use a lot of client side scripting (aka JavaScript)? If yes, you might 
find that to be your biggest slowdown.

Or you can have less users access your web site....see, without more 
information I cannot come up with better proposals.


David



From brenttech at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 09:29:29 2009
From: brenttech at gmail.com (Brent Baisley)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 09:29:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] website loading speed issue
In-Reply-To: <dd125add0909040112u16a0dd89r2d992d30b63465e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dd125add0909040112u16a0dd89r2d992d30b63465e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5d515c620909040629q6aa634a0j375a4444b8d606cb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:12 AM, Mangesh Sathe<mangesh at ascellent.co.in> wrote:
> Hello everyone ,
> This is Mangesh Sathe,India..
>
> i have developed one erp website.
>
> As it has large amount of data it takes so much time to?load.
> i have? optimised sql queries as?well as php?code.

You really need to find where the bottleneck is, then focus on that.
If it's just a lot of code or data being moved around, then cache it
and/or create summaries.
If the data doesn't change that often, then you shouldn't rerun the
same queries every time, just save the result.

>
> Any suggestion or Anyone knows ,how can i solve this problem?

Your code may be optimized, but how much of it are you loading at
once? Remember, PHP has reload everything on every hit. Load only
what's needed for the current task. How long does it take your system
to output "Hello World", without putting in any special code to handle
such a simple case?

Brent Baisley


>
> any help would b appretiated
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards,
> Mangesh Sathe


From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 10:14:08 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 10:14:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
In-Reply-To: <955111085-1251731473-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-347125429-@bda410.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <955111085-1251731473-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-347125429-@bda410.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50909040714i7f9165bn2bb506b21ac978a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:08 AM, <sequethin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Late to this party,
>

me too, but:

the way I think of it is, NULL simply means no value at all. 0 and boolean
false and '' are values, for sure; NULL is, um, null. As for concrete
examples, in baseball there are those two-row tables -- one for the away and
one for the home team -- with columns for each of the nine innings. Before
the game begins, what are the values in each of those fields?

Problems can arise in PHP because if you var_dump($foo) and it's NULL, is
that because it was never set, or because it was explicitly set to NULL? Or
is it because you are referring to global that's out of scope because you're
inside a function? PHP doesn't care because it's NULL in either case. If you
have an $object and accidently lapse into French and type
$objet->doSomething(), your program will puke because $objet is likewise
NULL. (Assuming for the sake of the example that you haven't actually
assigned an object to $objet)


As for Javascript, the days of "I hate it" are behind us. You gotta do it,
like it or not, in this brave new web 2.0 world. Fortunately we have an
ample selection of quality frameworks to choose from, all of which,
apparently, have peculiarities sufficiently irksome to some programmer,
whose Hubris and Impatience greatly exceed her or his Laziness, so that s?he
will write yet another one, and cast of characters grows larger. I'm a
humble consumer, myself, and I'm liking JQuery.


-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From ioplex at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 12:03:37 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 12:03:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
	Management and Hosting 	Service
Message-ID: <78c6bd860909040903h53b8b833n26064d61896ee02e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I have a problem. I cannot get the ISP I registered my domains with to
reply to my support requests. Initially they did respond to my request
and said they would look into the issue. However, I did not receive
any response since. I have sent numerous emails to them in the past
week and a half and tried sending new fresh ones without their ticket
number so that I received their automated acknowledgment with a new
ticket number (which I did receive so I know I'm not just getting
filtered). But still I have not heard from them at all. If I call
their hosting support group I get run around for 3 minutes before the
robotic woman invariably says "we are unable to take your call right
now" and hangs up.

So I'm looking for opinions about ISPs that handle domain
registration, domain management (basically DNS zone record updating)
and some hosting (with PHP of course) and how to transfer those
domains. I actually host my important stuff myself on a virtual
private server so I am primarily interested in domain registration and
management. The current ISP has very crude utilities for managing the
domains, changing DNS and so on. It can be a chore just to login and
operate their "control panel".

Can anyone recommend an ISP that has the following:

 * good responsive support
 * good, easy to use utility for managing domains, registering new
ones, adjusting DNS zone info, etc
 * affordable domain registration
 * affordable hosting with PHP
 * free hosting for small static sites

Has anyone had any experience with transferring domains from one
company to another? I assume I just get DNS setup with the new ISP as
far as I can and then get the old ISP to transfer the domains to the
new ISP. But considing I have had zero contact with the soon-to-be-old
ISP, I'm wondering how I can actually get this done. It's not like I
can just tell my credit card company to stop all payments - they
control my domains.

Also, if I paid for a domain for say 10 years, do I have to pay full
price all over again?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
PHP Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/plexcel.html


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Sep  4 12:08:14 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 09:08:14 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
Message-ID: <1252080494.12787@coral.he.net>

References to baseball AND the Tao in a PHP post about NULL!  Love it!!

Kristina

PS Also a jQuery fan here.


> 
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:08 AM, <sequethin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Late to this party,
> >
> 
> me too, but:
> 
> the way I think of it is, NULL simply means no value at all. 0 and 
boolean
> false and '' are values, for sure; NULL is, um, null. As for concrete
> examples, in baseball there are those two-row tables -- one for the 
away and
> one for the home team -- with columns for each of the nine innings. 
Before
> the game begins, what are the values in each of those fields?
> 
> Problems can arise in PHP because if you var_dump($foo) and it's 
NULL, is
> that because it was never set, or because it was explicitly set to 
NULL? Or
> is it because you are referring to global that's out of scope because 
you're
> inside a function? PHP doesn't care because it's NULL in either case. 
If you
> have an $object and accidently lapse into French and type
> $objet->doSomething(), your program will puke because $objet is 
likewise
> NULL. (Assuming for the sake of the example that you haven't actually
> assigned an object to $objet)
> 
> 
> As for Javascript, the days of "I hate it" are behind us. You gotta 
do it,
> like it or not, in this brave new web 2.0 world. Fortunately we have 
an
> ample selection of quality frameworks to choose from, all of which,
> apparently, have peculiarities sufficiently irksome to some 
programmer,
> whose Hubris and Impatience greatly exceed her or his Laziness, so 
that s?he
> will write yet another one, and cast of characters grows larger. I'm a
> humble consumer, myself, and I'm liking JQuery.
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Mintz
> http://davidmintz.org/
> 
> The subtle source is clear and bright
> The tributary streams flow through the darkness
> 
> 






From patrick.fee at baesystems.com  Fri Sep  4 12:26:54 2009
From: patrick.fee at baesystems.com (Fee, Patrick J (US SSA))
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 12:26:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
In-Reply-To: <1252080494.12787@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <814i7o$44pt8k@dmzms99802.na.baesystems.com>

As a Lifetime Baseball fan (married over home plate back in 2000), career-long web-programmer (I remember when NYPHP was first getting started), and long time stalker of this list, I second Kristina's "Love It".

As programmers, we spend a lot of time using metaphors to explain what we are doing in a way easily understood by others. I've even explained the ins-and-outs of MX records by using a "delivery to an upscale apartment building" metaphor.  But the baseball metaphor and Tao reference are best I've seen in a while... both for their simplicity and universal (at least in North America) appeal.

And to think that I overlooked the original posting.  Thanks Kristina.
Thanks for making my Friday interesting.


Patrick J. Fee
Manager, Systems Engineering Services
BAE Systems Technology Solutions & Services
Cel: (240) 401-6820
Fax: (301) 231-2635
Patrick.Fee at BAESystems.com


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Kristina D. H. Anderson
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 12:08 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL

References to baseball AND the Tao in a PHP post about NULL!  Love it!!

Kristina

PS Also a jQuery fan here.

-----Original Message----- 
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:08 AM, <sequethin at gmail.com wrote:
 
[...] the way I think of it is, NULL simply means no value at all. 0 and 
boolean false and '' are values, for sure; NULL is, um, null. As for concrete examples, in baseball there are those two-row tables -- one for the 
away and one for the home team -- with columns for each of the nine innings. 
Before the game begins, what are the values in each of those fields?
 
 Problems can arise in PHP because if you var_dump($foo) and it's 
NULL, is that because it was never set, or because it was explicitly set to 
NULL? Or is it because you are referring to global that's out of scope because you're inside a function? PHP doesn't care because it's NULL in either case. If you have an $object and accidently lapse into French and type $objet-doSomething(), your program will puke because $objet is 
likewise NULL. (Assuming for the sake of the example that you haven't actually assigned an object to $objet)
  
As for Javascript, the days of "I hate it" are behind us. You gotta 
do it, like it or not, in this brave new web 2.0 world. Fortunately we have 
an ample selection of quality frameworks to choose from, all of which, apparently, have peculiarities sufficiently irksome to some programmer,
 whose Hubris and Impatience greatly exceed her or his Laziness, so 
that she will write yet another one, and cast of characters grows larger. I'm a humble consumer, myself, and I'm liking JQuery.
 
 -- 
 David Mintz
 http://davidmintz.org/
 
 The subtle source is clear and bright
 The tributary streams flow through the darkness
 
 




_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Sep  4 12:41:44 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 09:41:44 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
Message-ID: <1252082504.19898@coral.he.net>

Hey, you're welcome, but you should really thank Mr. Mintz as he's the 
one who's responsible.

An empty box score is a really good way to explain NULL, I gotta hand 
it to him.

Kristina

> As a Lifetime Baseball fan (married over home plate back in 2000), 
career-long web-programmer (I remember when NYPHP was first getting 
started), and long time stalker of this list, I second Kristina's "Love 
It".
> 
> As programmers, we spend a lot of time using metaphors to explain 
what we are doing in a way easily understood by others. I've even 
explained the ins-and-outs of MX records by using a "delivery to an 
upscale apartment building" metaphor.  But the baseball metaphor and 
Tao reference are best I've seen in a while... both for their 
simplicity and universal (at least in North America) appeal.
> 
> And to think that I overlooked the original posting.  Thanks Kristina.
> Thanks for making my Friday interesting.
> 
> 
> Patrick J. Fee
> Manager, Systems Engineering Services
> BAE Systems Technology Solutions & Services
> Cel: (240) 401-6820
> Fax: (301) 231-2635
> Patrick.Fee at BAESystems.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Kristina D. H. Anderson
> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 12:08 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
> 
> References to baseball AND the Tao in a PHP post about NULL!  Love 
it!!
> 
> Kristina
> 
> PS Also a jQuery fan here.
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:08 AM, <sequethin at gmail.com wrote:
>  
> [...] the way I think of it is, NULL simply means no value at all. 0 
and 
> boolean false and '' are values, for sure; NULL is, um, null. As for 
concrete examples, in baseball there are those two-row tables -- one 
for the 
> away and one for the home team -- with columns for each of the nine 
innings. 
> Before the game begins, what are the values in each of those fields?
>  
>  Problems can arise in PHP because if you var_dump($foo) and it's 
> NULL, is that because it was never set, or because it was explicitly 
set to 
> NULL? Or is it because you are referring to global that's out of 
scope because you're inside a function? PHP doesn't care because it's 
NULL in either case. If you have an $object and accidently lapse into 
French and type $objet-doSomething(), your program will puke because 
$objet is 
> likewise NULL. (Assuming for the sake of the example that you haven't 
actually assigned an object to $objet)
>   
> As for Javascript, the days of "I hate it" are behind us. You gotta 
> do it, like it or not, in this brave new web 2.0 world. Fortunately 
we have 
> an ample selection of quality frameworks to choose from, all of 
which, apparently, have peculiarities sufficiently irksome to some 
programmer,
>  whose Hubris and Impatience greatly exceed her or his Laziness, so 
> that she will write yet another one, and cast of characters grows 
larger. I'm a humble consumer, myself, and I'm liking JQuery.
>  
>  -- 
>  David Mintz
>  http://davidmintz.org/
>  
>  The subtle source is clear and bright
>  The tributary streams flow through the darkness
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 






From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Sep  4 12:55:44 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 09:55:44 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
Message-ID: <1252083344.23068@coral.he.net>

If anyone wants to write a Taoist poem, in pseudocode, about how NULL 
is like an inning of baseball yet to be played...now THAT would be 
cool. 

:)  

Kristina

> As a Lifetime Baseball fan (married over home plate back in 2000), 
career-long web-programmer (I remember when NYPHP was first getting 
started), and long time stalker of this list, I second Kristina's "Love 
It".
> 
> As programmers, we spend a lot of time using metaphors to explain 
what we are doing in a way easily understood by others. I've even 
explained the ins-and-outs of MX records by using a "delivery to an 
upscale apartment building" metaphor.  But the baseball metaphor and 
Tao reference are best I've seen in a while... both for their 
simplicity and universal (at least in North America) appeal.
> 
> And to think that I overlooked the original posting.  Thanks Kristina.
> Thanks for making my Friday interesting.
> 
> 
> Patrick J. Fee
> Manager, Systems Engineering Services
> BAE Systems Technology Solutions & Services
> Cel: (240) 401-6820
> Fax: (301) 231-2635
> Patrick.Fee at BAESystems.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Kristina D. H. Anderson
> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 12:08 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
> 
> References to baseball AND the Tao in a PHP post about NULL!  Love 
it!!
> 
> Kristina
> 
> PS Also a jQuery fan here.
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:08 AM, <sequethin at gmail.com wrote:
>  
> [...] the way I think of it is, NULL simply means no value at all. 0 
and 
> boolean false and '' are values, for sure; NULL is, um, null. As for 
concrete examples, in baseball there are those two-row tables -- one 
for the 
> away and one for the home team -- with columns for each of the nine 
innings. 
> Before the game begins, what are the values in each of those fields?
>  
>  Problems can arise in PHP because if you var_dump($foo) and it's 
> NULL, is that because it was never set, or because it was explicitly 
set to 
> NULL? Or is it because you are referring to global that's out of 
scope because you're inside a function? PHP doesn't care because it's 
NULL in either case. If you have an $object and accidently lapse into 
French and type $objet-doSomething(), your program will puke because 
$objet is 
> likewise NULL. (Assuming for the sake of the example that you haven't 
actually assigned an object to $objet)
>   
> As for Javascript, the days of "I hate it" are behind us. You gotta 
> do it, like it or not, in this brave new web 2.0 world. Fortunately 
we have 
> an ample selection of quality frameworks to choose from, all of 
which, apparently, have peculiarities sufficiently irksome to some 
programmer,
>  whose Hubris and Impatience greatly exceed her or his Laziness, so 
> that she will write yet another one, and cast of characters grows 
larger. I'm a humble consumer, myself, and I'm liking JQuery.
>  
>  -- 
>  David Mintz
>  http://davidmintz.org/
>  
>  The subtle source is clear and bright
>  The tributary streams flow through the darkness
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 







From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Sep  4 13:27:28 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 13:27:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
 Management and Hosting 	Service
In-Reply-To: <78c6bd860909040903h53b8b833n26064d61896ee02e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909041325100.22291-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Michael B Allen wrote:

> So I'm looking for opinions about ISPs that handle domain
> registration, domain management (basically DNS zone record updating)
> and some hosting (with PHP of course) and how to transfer those
> domains. I actually host my important stuff myself on a virtual
> private server so I am primarily interested in domain registration and
> management. The current ISP has very crude utilities for managing the
> domains, changing DNS and so on. It can be a chore just to login and
> operate their "control panel".

Why does your *ISP* need to handle domain registration? Why not do it 
yourself directly with a domain registrar? Many domain registrars offer 
DNS too at no extra charge - that way you keep control of DNS and domains 
and you can manage any migrations yourself.

> Also, if I paid for a domain for say 10 years, do I have to pay full
> price all over again?

If you are listed as the administrative contact on a domain, then you have 
the authority to transfer that domain to another registrar.



-- 
Aj.



From lists at nopersonal.info  Fri Sep  4 13:50:43 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:50:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
In-Reply-To: <1252083344.23068@coral.he.net>
References: <1252083344.23068@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4AA15373.3040506@nopersonal.info>

Kristina D. H. Anderson wrote:
> If anyone wants to write a Taoist poem, in pseudocode, about how NULL 
> is like an inning of baseball yet to be played...now THAT would be 
> cool. 

I'll second that!

Bev




From seth at ghiek.com  Fri Sep  4 15:27:11 2009
From: seth at ghiek.com (seth at ghiek.com)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:27:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk]
 =?utf-8?q?Bad_ISP_Problem=3A_Need_New_Domain_Registr?=
 =?utf-8?q?ation=2C_Management_and_Hosting_=09Service?=
In-Reply-To: <78c6bd860909040903h53b8b833n26064d61896ee02e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78c6bd860909040903h53b8b833n26064d61896ee02e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b31b47dc8b6df40863f414aab55e9077@ghiek.com>

I have about 10 sites with www.addaction.net -- and the primary reason i
have expanded my sites with them is their incredibly responsibe support.
they use cPanel for administration that the website owner uses (and it's
quite good). rates are good -- check out their site for a standard intro
special ($49/year). they are associated with a Registrar. my sites are
pretty fast but i never have much action (at least my clients have never
complained).

hth/spirits,

seth

I am totally, 100% pleased with addaction. they're in nyc

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 12:03:37 -0400, Michael B Allen <ioplex at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a problem. I cannot get the ISP I registered my domains with to
> reply to my support requests. Initially they did respond to my request
> and said they would look into the issue. However, I did not receive
> any response since. I have sent numerous emails to them in the past
> week and a half and tried sending new fresh ones without their ticket
> number so that I received their automated acknowledgment with a new
> ticket number (which I did receive so I know I'm not just getting
> filtered). But still I have not heard from them at all. If I call
> their hosting support group I get run around for 3 minutes before the
> robotic woman invariably says "we are unable to take your call right
> now" and hangs up.
> 
> So I'm looking for opinions about ISPs that handle domain
> registration, domain management (basically DNS zone record updating)
> and some hosting (with PHP of course) and how to transfer those
> domains. I actually host my important stuff myself on a virtual
> private server so I am primarily interested in domain registration and
> management. The current ISP has very crude utilities for managing the
> domains, changing DNS and so on. It can be a chore just to login and
> operate their "control panel".
> 
> Can anyone recommend an ISP that has the following:
> 
>  * good responsive support
>  * good, easy to use utility for managing domains, registering new
> ones, adjusting DNS zone info, etc
>  * affordable domain registration
>  * affordable hosting with PHP
>  * free hosting for small static sites
> 
> Has anyone had any experience with transferring domains from one
> company to another? I assume I just get DNS setup with the new ISP as
> far as I can and then get the old ISP to transfer the domains to the
> new ISP. But considing I have had zero contact with the soon-to-be-old
> ISP, I'm wondering how I can actually get this done. It's not like I
> can just tell my credit card company to stop all payments - they
> control my domains.
> 
> Also, if I paid for a domain for say 10 years, do I have to pay full
> price all over again?
> 
> Any ideas would be appreciated.
> 
> Mike


From ioplex at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:25:35 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:25:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
	Management and Hosting Service
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909041325100.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <78c6bd860909040903h53b8b833n26064d61896ee02e@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909041325100.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860909041325k724bfc27jf689d071854e16de@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Ajai Khattri<ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Michael B Allen wrote:
>
>> So I'm looking for opinions about ISPs that handle domain
>> registration, domain management (basically DNS zone record updating)
>> and some hosting (with PHP of course) and how to transfer those
>> domains. I actually host my important stuff myself on a virtual
>> private server so I am primarily interested in domain registration and
>> management. The current ISP has very crude utilities for managing the
>> domains, changing DNS and so on. It can be a chore just to login and
>> operate their "control panel".
>
> Why does your *ISP* need to handle domain registration? Why not do it
> yourself directly with a domain registrar? Many domain registrars offer
> DNS too at no extra charge - that way you keep control of DNS and domains
> and you can manage any migrations yourself.
>
>> Also, if I paid for a domain for say 10 years, do I have to pay full
>> price all over again?
>
> If you are listed as the administrative contact on a domain, then you have
> the authority to transfer that domain to another registrar.

By "ISP" I mean the domain registrar and not Internet access. So AFAIK
I'm already doing it directly.

But I also need minimal hosting. I have one site that is just a static
page with two images and another for a family member to learn PHP and
web stuff. I would rather host these off of my VPS. I even paid an
extra $50 for the PHP site.

Someone recommend eNom but it is considerably more expensive. I
suppose I got what I paid for.

I don't understand why it should cost more than $10 / yr to host a few
DNS records and maybe a static web page.

Maybe the current "ISP" is trying to get rid of me and not answering
support requests is their way of dropping customers that don't buy
enough extra services.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
PHP Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/plexcel.html


From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:56:56 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:56:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
In-Reply-To: <814i7o$44pt8k@dmzms99802.na.baesystems.com>
References: <1252080494.12787@coral.he.net>
	<814i7o$44pt8k@dmzms99802.na.baesystems.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50909041356i50661323nd5b2077d82780504@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Fee, Patrick J (US SSA) <
patrick.fee at baesystems.com> wrote:

> As a Lifetime Baseball fan (married over home plate back in 2000),
> career-long web-programmer (I remember when NYPHP was first getting
> started), and long time stalker of this list, I second Kristina's "Love It".
>
> As programmers, we spend a lot of time using metaphors to explain what we
> are doing in a way easily understood by others. I've even explained the
> ins-and-outs of MX records by using a "delivery to an upscale apartment
> building" metaphor.  But the baseball metaphor and Tao reference are best
> I've seen in a while... both for their simplicity and universal (at least in
> North America) appeal.
>
>
Ah, not just in North America. Baseball is popular in Japan, Central
America, the Carribean, etc etc because people like it, because it's *good*.
One of those exports the US can feel proud of, unlike, e.g., McDonald's.

As for Tao and all that, don't get me started, it's a favorite subject. My
sig is excerpted from a poem that has several published translations, known
where I come from as "The Identity of Relative and Absolute", by the 8th
century Chinese Ch'an (Zen) Master Shitou. It's in the Zen tradition, but
has a strong Taoist influence.

You know the deal:  Ordinary mind is Tao.

Have a great weekend.

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From paul at devonianfarm.com  Fri Sep  4 17:17:40 2009
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (Paul A Houle)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:17:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50909041356i50661323nd5b2077d82780504@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1252080494.12787@coral.he.net>	<814i7o$44pt8k@dmzms99802.na.baesystems.com>
	<721f1cc50909041356i50661323nd5b2077d82780504@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA183F4.5040207@devonianfarm.com>

David Mintz wrote:
>
>
> Ah, not just in North America. Baseball is popular in Japan, Central 
> America, the Carribean, etc etc because people like it, because it's 
> /good/. One of those exports the US can feel proud of, unlike, e.g., 
> McDonald's.
>
    Well,  last I heard the player's union was insisting that players 
should be allowed to take amphetamines during the game so they don't 
fall asleep.  Maybe someday they'll provide amphetamines to the fans as 
well...


From rolan at omnistep.com  Fri Sep  4 17:22:25 2009
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:22:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
 Management and Hosting 	Service
In-Reply-To: <78c6bd860909040903h53b8b833n26064d61896ee02e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78c6bd860909040903h53b8b833n26064d61896ee02e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA18511.1080602@omnistep.com>

Michael B Allen wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have a problem. I cannot get the ISP I registered my domains with to
> reply to my support requests. Initially they did respond to my request
>
>   

1and1.com has fairly cheap domain registration and basic DNS 
functionality. They keep your credit card on file so buying more domains 
is easy (not so good if your account is hacked though!) and the domains 
auto-renew every year so you don't have to worry about losing one to 
expiration.  I don't use them for hosting, so i can't say anything about 
that. Their support through mail wasn't too helpful but their system 
just works, so there isn't much need for support.

~Rolan


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Sep  4 17:37:54 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 14:37:54 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
Message-ID: <1252100274.26865@coral.he.net>


> >
>     Well,  last I heard the player's union was insisting that players 
> should be allowed to take amphetamines during the game so they don't 
> fall asleep.  Maybe someday they'll provide amphetamines to the fans 
as 
> well...
> 

Fans don't need amphetamines.  Being a Mets fan, I can tell you it's so 
agitating watching their games ... almost as agitating as their 
management press conferences... that it should come with a 
warning "Limit Caffeine Use While Viewing This Product."

And as for Yankees fans, half of them will need to be sedated and 
deprogrammed after they royally flame out in the playoffs again next 
month.

As for the players, this time of year especially, I bet every game 
starts to feel like a day game after a night game, and we all know how 
that goes...I guess a few million bucks a year just isn't enough to 
keep them awake.

Kristina


From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Sep  4 20:18:51 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 20:18:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
 Management and Hosting Service
In-Reply-To: <78c6bd860909041325k724bfc27jf689d071854e16de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Michael B Allen wrote:

> But I also need minimal hosting. I have one site that is just a static
> page with two images and another for a family member to learn PHP and
> web stuff. I would rather host these off of my VPS. I even paid an
> extra $50 for the PHP site.
> 
> Someone recommend eNom but it is considerably more expensive. I
> suppose I got what I paid for.
> 
> I don't understand why it should cost more than $10 / yr to host a few
> DNS records and maybe a static web page.

I use GoDaddy for that.

> Maybe the current "ISP" is trying to get rid of me and not answering
> support requests is their way of dropping customers that don't buy
> enough extra services.

I also run my own DNS for some domains on my own virtual server, Im 
paying $20/month for my own private server with Linode (linode.com). I use 
that for hosting some small sites, hosting email, and as a server to play 
around/develop code on.


-- 
Aj.



From ramons at gmx.net  Fri Sep  4 20:52:35 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:52:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Need help understanding NULL
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50909041356i50661323nd5b2077d82780504@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1252080494.12787@coral.he.net>	<814i7o$44pt8k@dmzms99802.na.baesystems.com>
	<721f1cc50909041356i50661323nd5b2077d82780504@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA1B653.3080403@gmx.net>

David Mintz wrote:
> Ah, not just in North America. Baseball is popular in Japan, Central 
> America, the Carribean, etc etc because people like it, because it's 
> /good/. One of those exports the US can feel proud of, unlike, e.g., 
> McDonald's.
> 

Well, maybe the overpaid, pillpopping, spitting players got their big bellies 
from McDonald's food? Being a foreign kid I find baseboll excruciatingly 
boring, but I guess that can be said about any event of the entertainment 
industry that borrows heavily from sports. Same with soccer in Germany, games 
are now played at noon just so that more pay TV channels in Asia will pay big 
bucks.
That said, there are semi-professional baseball leagues in Germany. See the 
current standings for the first league here:
http://www.baseball-softball.de/bundesliga/index.php?id=00000105
Nice to see that they have playdowns like a real sports league. Apparently, 
the Richrath Saints from my hometown are no longer playing. But we still got 
the Longhorns (http://www.langenfeld-longhorns.com/index.php?id=11) and the 
now independent Cheerleaders (http://www.cll-cheerleader.de/index.php) who are 
the new German Champions!
Also, the DEL (German Icehockey League) started today and there are plenty of 
US players (see here: http://www.del.org/). But me being a soccer guy I rather 
stay with my favorite club (http://www.borussia.de/de/home,2,0.html), which 
signed Michael Bradley, son of the coach of the US men's national soccer team. 
Borussia M?nchengladbach was also the club where Kasey Keller played several 
seasons.

OK, now what has that to do with a PHP mailing list? All these sites use PHP, 
which is probably an even more spectacular export than baseball.


Happy PHPing,

David




From JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com  Fri Sep  4 23:07:47 2009
From: JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com (Joey Derrico)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 23:07:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
 Management and Hosting Service
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <4AA1D603.4080501@nyc.rr.com>

I pretty much agree here. I have always used GoDaddy for Domains and I 
have never had a problem. I used Yahoo once for registering my domain 
many years ago, and it was just a pain in the butt. I have also used 
GoDaddy for hosting and have been happy with them and thought there 
prices were fair. Though admittedly I never looked around that much for 
Domain registration or Hosting.

Joey

Ajai Khattri wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Michael B Allen wrote:
>
>   
>> But I also need minimal hosting. I have one site that is just a static
>> page with two images and another for a family member to learn PHP and
>> web stuff. I would rather host these off of my VPS. I even paid an
>> extra $50 for the PHP site.
>>
>> Someone recommend eNom but it is considerably more expensive. I
>> suppose I got what I paid for.
>>
>> I don't understand why it should cost more than $10 / yr to host a few
>> DNS records and maybe a static web page.
>>     
>
> I use GoDaddy for that.
>
>   
>> Maybe the current "ISP" is trying to get rid of me and not answering
>> support requests is their way of dropping customers that don't buy
>> enough extra services.
>>     
>
> I also run my own DNS for some domains on my own virtual server, Im 
> paying $20/month for my own private server with Linode (linode.com). I use 
> that for hosting some small sites, hosting email, and as a server to play 
> around/develop code on.
>
>
>   
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From chsnyder at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 07:56:33 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 07:56:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
	Management and Hosting Service
In-Reply-To: <4AA1D603.4080501@nyc.rr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
	<4AA1D603.4080501@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690909050456i4314ba09saf2330dfe577c4eb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Joey Derrico<JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> I pretty much agree here. I have always used GoDaddy for Domains and I have
> never had a problem. I used Yahoo once for registering my domain many years
> ago, and it was just a pain in the butt. I have also used GoDaddy for
> hosting and have been happy with them and thought there prices were fair.
> Though admittedly I never looked around that much for Domain registration or
> Hosting.
>
> Joey
>

We've had problems with GoDaddy hosting recently.

One client got email blacklisted because their hosted site shares the
same IP address as a big spam operation (Columbia.edu wouldn't even
deliver mail sent from other addresses with the organization's URL in
it).

Another client ended up on the Firefox/Google malware blacklist when
their hosted site was compromised. Many other domains on the same box
were compromised at the same time.

Fast, cheap, secure. Choose two.

Chris Snyder
http://chxor.chxo.com/


From ben at projectskyline.com  Sat Sep  5 09:00:50 2009
From: ben at projectskyline.com (Ben Sgro)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 09:00:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
 Management and Hosting Service
In-Reply-To: <b76252690909050456i4314ba09saf2330dfe577c4eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>	<4AA1D603.4080501@nyc.rr.com>
	<b76252690909050456i4314ba09saf2330dfe577c4eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA26102.8010305@projectskyline.com>

Hello,

I have, and still use, nexcess.net for all my hosting and domains.

I have a reseller plan w/them, so it is more than you want to pay, but
their customer support is amazing and you might want to at least take
a look.

I've used goDaddy, but I had problems with addresses being blacklisted.
I also didn't have much success with their customer support (nor did I 
expect to).

I also used completeHostingSolutions for a few years, but they are ***** 
and
nearly had to enter a legal battle to get my domain's released (along 
with various BBB complaints) -
I'd advise against them.

Good luck.

- Ben

Chris Snyder wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Joey Derrico<JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>   
>> I pretty much agree here. I have always used GoDaddy for Domains and I have
>> never had a problem. I used Yahoo once for registering my domain many years
>> ago, and it was just a pain in the butt. I have also used GoDaddy for
>> hosting and have been happy with them and thought there prices were fair.
>> Though admittedly I never looked around that much for Domain registration or
>> Hosting.
>>
>> Joey
>>
>>     
>
> We've had problems with GoDaddy hosting recently.
>
> One client got email blacklisted because their hosted site shares the
> same IP address as a big spam operation (Columbia.edu wouldn't even
> deliver mail sent from other addresses with the organization's URL in
> it).
>
> Another client ended up on the Firefox/Google malware blacklist when
> their hosted site was compromised. Many other domains on the same box
> were compromised at the same time.
>
> Fast, cheap, secure. Choose two.
>
> Chris Snyder
> http://chxor.chxo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>   


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 14:01:07 2009
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 14:01:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
	Management and Hosting Service
In-Reply-To: <4AA26102.8010305@projectskyline.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
	<4AA1D603.4080501@nyc.rr.com>
	<b76252690909050456i4314ba09saf2330dfe577c4eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA26102.8010305@projectskyline.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380909051101h3a0f0a42kd8ed2e99b76771b1@mail.gmail.com>

Make life VERY simple. It's not perfect, but it works:

PICK the worlds biggest registrar of names, godaddy. use them.  They will
answer your calls on the spot 24 hours a day. Right from Phoenix, AZ. I have
had zero problems with their tech support. They have been great to me. They
have millions of sites registered with them.

PICK the worlds biggest data center for hosting, hostgator. They will answer
your online help in 30 seconds. I suspect outsourced tech help to  China,
but they know their stuff. Rock solid. These guys host hundreds of thousands
of web sites. They know what they are doing.

No worries, no problems. Life is short. Don't waste a minute with this sh*t.
Just move on to coding, You should have ZERO problems with hosting (or
almost) at this point.  It's not 1995.

Both of these guys are not perfect, but they are number 1.

Dreamhost is ok, but I like LIVE support. Which hostgator has.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have, and still use, nexcess.net for all my hosting and domains.
>
> I have a reseller plan w/them, so it is more than you want to pay, but
> their customer support is amazing and you might want to at least take
> a look.
>
> I've used goDaddy, but I had problems with addresses being blacklisted.
> I also didn't have much success with their customer support (nor did I
> expect to).
>
> I also used completeHostingSolutions for a few years, but they are *****
> and
> nearly had to enter a legal battle to get my domain's released (along with
> various BBB complaints) -
> I'd advise against them.
>
> Good luck.
>
> - Ben
>
>
> Chris Snyder wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Joey Derrico<JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I pretty much agree here. I have always used GoDaddy for Domains and I
>>> have
>>> never had a problem. I used Yahoo once for registering my domain many
>>> years
>>> ago, and it was just a pain in the butt. I have also used GoDaddy for
>>> hosting and have been happy with them and thought there prices were fair.
>>> Though admittedly I never looked around that much for Domain registration
>>> or
>>> Hosting.
>>>
>>> Joey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> We've had problems with GoDaddy hosting recently.
>>
>> One client got email blacklisted because their hosted site shares the
>> same IP address as a big spam operation (Columbia.edu wouldn't even
>> deliver mail sent from other addresses with the organization's URL in
>> it).
>>
>> Another client ended up on the Firefox/Google malware blacklist when
>> their hosted site was compromised. Many other domains on the same box
>> were compromised at the same time.
>>
>> Fast, cheap, secure. Choose two.
>>
>> Chris Snyder
>> http://chxor.chxo.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
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From ioplex at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 21:34:55 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 21:34:55 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Bad ISP Problem: Need New Domain Registration,
	Management and Hosting Service
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <78c6bd860909041325k724bfc27jf689d071854e16de@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909042016280.22291-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860909051834q60d6136aqafdc1fbeaeb6fa7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Ajai Khattri<ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Michael B Allen wrote:
>
>> But I also need minimal hosting. I have one site that is just a static
>> page with two images and another for a family member to learn PHP and
>> web stuff. I would rather host these off of my VPS. I even paid an
>> extra $50 for the PHP site.
>>
>> Someone recommend eNom but it is considerably more expensive. I
>> suppose I got what I paid for.
>>
>> I don't understand why it should cost more than $10 / yr to host a few
>> DNS records and maybe a static web page.
>
> I use GoDaddy for that.

Turns out I'm already hosting a site with GoDaddy and didn't even
realize it until I called them asking about their service. Duh. So I
have initiated transfer of all of my domains to them.

Incidentally, the now old ISP finally responded to my issue. But they
had to convert my account in some goofy way to do it. That's probably
what took them so long. And it still didn't really solve my issue.

But that's not the worst of it. They sent me an email with my password
in it totally in the clear. That should be against the law. It so
happened to be close to a password I use for banking and such. I just
spent the last hour changing passwords.

Man will I be glad when the transfers to GoDaddy are complete.

>> Maybe the current "ISP" is trying to get rid of me and not answering
>> support requests is their way of dropping customers that don't buy
>> enough extra services.
>
> I also run my own DNS for some domains on my own virtual server, Im
> paying $20/month for my own private server with Linode (linode.com). I use
> that for hosting some small sites, hosting email, and as a server to play
> around/develop code on.

I have used linode.com for many years. Great service.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
Java Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/


From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Tue Sep  8 15:19:35 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:19:35 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] independent contractors and OSS
Message-ID: <4AA6AE47.5060501@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Hi All,

I'm looking for ideas on putting an "open source clause" into my 
development contracts.  (Sure I'll talk it out with my attorney, but I 
want to come to him with something better than "please think about this 
and bill me for your ruminations.")

All I want (ha!) is to get paid for my labor /and/ to have the option of 
then releasing that work under an Open Source license.  Sure, it's not 
appropriate for many clients, but I think many of my existing clients 
wouldn't care.

My main concern here is based on the notion that my typical development 
work is "work for hire" and thus IP developed in the course of that work 
belongs to the client, not to me.

Anyway, I'm not fishing for a debate about licensing terms or contract 
law.  I'm just wondering if anyone here does or has done jobs like this, 
and how you a) explain it to your clients verbally, and b) phrase it 
contractually. 

Anybody?

- A.

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"





From chsnyder at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 16:01:08 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 16:01:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] independent contractors and OSS
In-Reply-To: <4AA6AE47.5060501@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4AA6AE47.5060501@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690909081301w2d9c9a68hcc603d417ddb8d7d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Allen
Shaw<allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:

> Anyway, I'm not fishing for a debate about licensing terms or contract law.
> ?I'm just wondering if anyone here does or has done jobs like this, and how
> you a) explain it to your clients verbally, and b) phrase it contractually.
> Anybody?
>
> - A.

When I freelanced I was always very up front about my desire to work
with open source libraries and write open source code. Most clients
didn't care, a few thought it was a neat idea.

I once explained to someone that if they let me release the source
code, they would get a 25% discount on the project. I might have
padded my initial bid hoping this would happen. ;-) Later, I just made
it clear that open source was how I worked. Simple, easy, and every
project benefitted from the ones that came before.

As for contract, just pick a license (BSD seems to raise fewer hackles
than GPL, but again most non-programmers don't care) and say something
like: Client will retain the copyright to all work for hire, but
agrees to release the project source code under the <specific license
here> license.

I don't think you really want to be more specific than that in a
contract. What does it mean to release? Where is it posted? Leave it
alone so you can decide later.


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Sep  8 18:13:40 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 15:13:40 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] independent contractors and OSS
Message-ID: <1252448020.14446@coral.he.net>

Hi Allen,

In my view there is a difference between code that contains specific 
proprietary information or trade secrets of your client (very rare) and 
code that is reusable, modular and somewhat generic in nature (99% of 
code) and is akin to a programmer's "Toolkit" and isn't property of 
anyone but the person who uses the tools.

I think that in most cases if clients have specific concerns with 
confidentiality and code reuse, they will bring them up during 
negotiations.  Otherwise, you should yourself be cognizant of (and 
discuss with your attorney) what is considered proprietary information 
in each context, if you have concerns.  But most of your code will be 
considered "tools of the trade" and is fully reusable by you as such, 
in accordance with the GPL, at least according to my best understanding.

Otherwise any restrictions on code reuse and publication aren't 
reasonable or enforceable on the part of the client...because good code 
gets reused, that's how things are done, and you should have the right 
to reuse your code unless it violates specific trade secrets...at least 
that's my viewpoint.   I'd love to hear any specific legal advice on 
this topic.

Kristina

> Hi All,
> 
> I'm looking for ideas on putting an "open source clause" into my 
> development contracts.  (Sure I'll talk it out with my attorney, but 
I 
> want to come to him with something better than "please think about 
this 
> and bill me for your ruminations.")
> 
> All I want (ha!) is to get paid for my labor /and/ to have the option 
of 
> then releasing that work under an Open Source license.  Sure, it's 
not 
> appropriate for many clients, but I think many of my existing clients 
> wouldn't care.
> 
> My main concern here is based on the notion that my typical 
development 
> work is "work for hire" and thus IP developed in the course of that 
work 
> belongs to the client, not to me.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not fishing for a debate about licensing terms or 
contract 
> law.  I'm just wondering if anyone here does or has done jobs like 
this, 
> and how you a) explain it to your clients verbally, and b) phrase it 
> contractually. 
> 
> Anybody?
> 
> - A.
> 
> -- 
> Allen Shaw
> TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com
> 
> "Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 







From michael.southwell at nyphp.com  Wed Sep  9 09:48:50 2009
From: michael.southwell at nyphp.com (Michael Southwell)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 09:48:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] losing session with IE8 only
Message-ID: <20090909094850.k7p5rw7k3oc8884k@webmail.nyphp.com>

I'm in an odd situation where I'm losing my session but only with IE8  
and only with PHP 5.2.6, not with any other browsers and not on my dev  
server with 5.3.0.

The controller script starts a session, sets a session variable,  
instantiates an object, and calls a method, about as simple as it can  
get. But the session variable is lost when the method runs. I can work  
around this by passing session vars around as parameters, but  
obviously that's a crappy solution.

Any ideas?

-- 
Michael Southwell
Vice President, Education
NYPHP TRAINING http://nyphp.com/Training


From Ricky at nylontechnology.com  Wed Sep  9 10:00:22 2009
From: Ricky at nylontechnology.com (Ricky Robinett)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 10:00:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] losing session with IE8 only
In-Reply-To: <20090909094850.k7p5rw7k3oc8884k@webmail.nyphp.com>
References: <20090909094850.k7p5rw7k3oc8884k@webmail.nyphp.com>
Message-ID: <86F397D96FD09B4792600C76E082F5B6D4CC49@RODIMUS.nylontechnology.local>

Michael,

Are you experiencing this issue while running the code locally? I've seen this issue related to IE8 running in protected mode for local sites. There's a setting 'Enable Protected Mode' that needs to be unchecked. 

The only other time I've seen something similar is when running code on the rackspace cloud. 

Thanks!
Ricky

.....................................
Ricky Robinett
Developer
Zend Certified Engineer, PHP5
Adobe Certified Expert, Advanced ColdFusion 8

Nylon Technology
350 7th Avenue, 10th Floor
New York, NY 10001
?
212.691.1134 x25?direct
212.691.3477 fax
ricky at nylontechnology.com
www.nylontechnology.com

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Southwell
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 9:49 AM
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Subject: [nycphp-talk] losing session with IE8 only

I'm in an odd situation where I'm losing my session but only with IE8  
and only with PHP 5.2.6, not with any other browsers and not on my dev  
server with 5.3.0.

The controller script starts a session, sets a session variable,  
instantiates an object, and calls a method, about as simple as it can  
get. But the session variable is lost when the method runs. I can work  
around this by passing session vars around as parameters, but  
obviously that's a crappy solution.

Any ideas?

-- 
Michael Southwell
Vice President, Education
NYPHP TRAINING http://nyphp.com/Training
_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php


From cahoyos at us.ibm.com  Wed Sep  9 10:09:51 2009
From: cahoyos at us.ibm.com (Carlos A Hoyos)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 10:09:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] losing session with IE8 only
In-Reply-To: <20090909094850.k7p5rw7k3oc8884k@webmail.nyphp.com>
References: <20090909094850.k7p5rw7k3oc8884k@webmail.nyphp.com>
Message-ID: <OF590633F3.1F59E3CF-ON8525762C.004D8C0D-8525762C.004DCE7D@us.ibm.com>

>I'm in an odd situation where I'm losing my session but only with IE8
>and only with PHP 5.2.6, not with any other browsers and not on my dev
>server with 5.3.0.

Although it sounds like a php / browser version problem, I'd start by
trouble shooting with the domain and security settings in the browser.
It's likely that your dev and production boxes are different and have
different domains, IE8 might have your prod domain under not trusted sites,
and might not be accepting cookies from it.

Carlos
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From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Wed Sep  9 10:37:42 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 09:37:42 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] independent contractors and OSS
In-Reply-To: <b76252690909081301w2d9c9a68hcc603d417ddb8d7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AA6AE47.5060501@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<b76252690909081301w2d9c9a68hcc603d417ddb8d7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA7BDB6.30606@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Chris Snyder wrote:
> As for contract, just pick a license (BSD seems to raise fewer hackles
> than GPL, but again most non-programmers don't care) and say something
> like: Client will retain the copyright to all work for hire, but
> agrees to release the project source code under the <specific license
> here> license.
>   
Naming the license in the contract seems easy enough.  Of course, if the 
(non-technical, consumer-minded) client holds the copyright, there is 
very little chance they'll be enforcing the terms of the license -- but 
even with that comment I'm approaching  "IANAL" territory, so I'll stop 
here.

Thanks for your input, Chris.  Great to hear from someone who is 
actually doing this. 

- Allen

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Wed Sep  9 10:41:15 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 09:41:15 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] independent contractors and OSS
In-Reply-To: <1252448020.14446@coral.he.net>
References: <1252448020.14446@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4AA7BE8B.7020305@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Kristina D. H. Anderson wrote:
> In my view ...
I suppose this is the kind of thing I'll have to work out with my 
attorney, as anyone should.  My opinion on this matters only as far as 
it leads me to consult an attorney or not.

Thanks for your input.

- A.

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From chsnyder at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 11:19:04 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 11:19:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] independent contractors and OSS
In-Reply-To: <4AA7BDB6.30606@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4AA6AE47.5060501@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<b76252690909081301w2d9c9a68hcc603d417ddb8d7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA7BDB6.30606@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690909090819u497e44eudac5ed875da32618@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Allen Shaw
<allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
>
> Naming the license in the contract seems easy enough. ?Of course, if the
> (non-technical, consumer-minded) client holds the copyright, there is very
> little chance they'll be enforcing the terms of the license -- but even with
> that comment I'm approaching ?"IANAL" territory, so I'll stop here.
>

I look at it from a practical angle: the reason why I want the code to
be licensed as open is so that I can reuse anything useful that I
write specifically for the client. I also believe it's the right thing
to do for other reasons, but that's beside the point.

They own the copyright, which makes them feel good. It "goes with the
flow" legally by not trying to change the rules of work for hire. As
far as I'm concerned, they can do whatever they want in the future,
including going proprietary with future code.

But at any point up to that change, I can legally and ethically
incorporate functional parts of the project into my own toolkit by
following the terms set forth in the license.

Remember, if the client has property that is being worked into the
project, such as trademarked artwork, licensed fonts, or third-party
libraries, you have to be careful to keep those things separate from
the open source codebase. This could mean keeping the project split
between two repositories, but in my experience those external things
are basically static and don't need to be versioned at all.

Let us know what your lawyer thinks, Allen.


From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Wed Sep  9 11:32:10 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:32:10 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] independent contractors and OSS
In-Reply-To: <b76252690909090819u497e44eudac5ed875da32618@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AA6AE47.5060501@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<b76252690909081301w2d9c9a68hcc603d417ddb8d7d@mail.gmail.com>	<4AA7BDB6.30606@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<b76252690909090819u497e44eudac5ed875da32618@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA7CA7A.6090306@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Chris Snyder wrote:
> ... the reason why I want the code to
> be licensed as open is so that I can reuse anything useful...
>
> They own the copyright, which makes them feel good. It "goes with the
> flow" legally by not trying to change the rules of work for hire.
> ... they can do whatever they want in the future,
> including going proprietary with future code.
>
> ... I can legally and ethically
> incorporate functional parts of the project into my own toolkit...
>
> ... if the client has property that is being worked into the
> project, ... keep those things separate from
> the open source codebase. 
>   
All very good points, Chris.  This discussion helps a lot in sketching 
out something to review with my lawyer.  It will be a couple of months 
before I do that -- I'm building a list of a few issues so I can make 
the best use of his billing increments. ;-)

I'll (try to remember to) report back here with feedback after that 
consultation.

Thanks,
Allen

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From michael.southwell at nyphp.com  Wed Sep  9 12:10:56 2009
From: michael.southwell at nyphp.com (Michael Southwell)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:10:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] losing session with IE8 only
In-Reply-To: <OF590633F3.1F59E3CF-ON8525762C.004D8C0D-8525762C.004DCE7D@us.ibm.com>
References: <20090909094850.k7p5rw7k3oc8884k@webmail.nyphp.com>
	<OF590633F3.1F59E3CF-ON8525762C.004D8C0D-8525762C.004DCE7D@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20090909121056.6vdkux5thc8oksw8@webmail.nyphp.com>

Quoting Carlos A Hoyos <cahoyos at us.ibm.com>:

> Although it sounds like a php / browser version problem, I'd start by
> trouble shooting with the domain and security settings in the browser.
> It's likely that your dev and production boxes are different and have
> different domains, IE8 might have your prod domain under not trusted sites,
> and might not be accepting cookies from it.

aha, I had the trusted set correctly, but not the cookies (I  
habitually have IE as crippled as possible). Many thanks, Carlos.

-- 
Michael Southwell
Vice President, Education
NYPHP TRAINING http://nyphp.com/Training


From paul at devonianfarm.com  Thu Sep 10 15:19:28 2009
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (Paul A Houle)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:19:28 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Funny PHP Gotcha
Message-ID: <4AA95140.2020102@devonianfarm.com>

I ran into a gotcha today coding a PHP script...  The funny thing about 
it is that I've been writing PHP for years and haven't run into this one 
before..  The pattern is

function process_info() {
   foreach ($this->get_items() as $item) {
       // $data=array()             <--- this should have been here,  
but wasn't
       $data["X"]=$item->Y;
       if ($item->bar) {
          $data["foo"]=$item->bar;
       }
       $this->do_something_with_transformed_data_array($data);
   }
}

I was mystified by the behavior of the script -- eventually it dawned on 
me that I wasn't initializing the $data array with each loop...  I 
wanted $data["foo"] to be undefined if $item->bar evaluates false,  
however,  the value of "foo" was persisting between iterations,  causing 
do_something_with_transformed_data_array to behave horribly wrong...

    In some languages (C#,  for instance),  variables declared at a 
point in a loop come into existence at that point in the loop,  and 
don't have any life from one iteration to the next -- that kind of 
scoping certainly makes this kind of error less likely (unless $data was 
defined in front of the loop.)

    What I find interesting is that I don't remember ever making this 
sort of mistake in the past...


From tmpvar at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 15:22:23 2009
From: tmpvar at gmail.com (Elijah Insua)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:22:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Funny PHP Gotcha
In-Reply-To: <4AA95140.2020102@devonianfarm.com>
References: <4AA95140.2020102@devonianfarm.com>
Message-ID: <2b4feca10909101222k4d5ef660wc3c8a72659cad20@mail.gmail.com>

>
>   What I find interesting is that I don't remember ever making this sort of
> mistake in the past...
>


Coding with notices on would make that an easy catch.
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From chsnyder at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 15:36:29 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:36:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Funny PHP Gotcha
In-Reply-To: <4AA95140.2020102@devonianfarm.com>
References: <4AA95140.2020102@devonianfarm.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690909101236n396b4ca0wdd94f5786e4464d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Paul A Houle <paul at devonianfarm.com> wrote:

> ? What I find interesting is that I don't remember ever making this sort of
> mistake in the past...

...that you know of. ;-)

There is function scope in php, but not loop scope.


From lists at nopersonal.info  Thu Sep 10 15:52:39 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:52:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] naming identifiers
In-Reply-To: <p06240801c6c02b790c32@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <1251578829.5291@coral.he.net>
	<4A99D1C6.8020606@nopersonal.info>	<20090830031616.GA10697@panix.com>
	<4A9A0BC2.4080504@nopersonal.info>
	<p06240801c6c02b790c32@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <4AA95907.3040109@nopersonal.info>

tedd wrote:
> At 1:18 AM -0400 8/30/09, lists at nopersonal.info wrote:
>>
>> In MySQL the exp_date field data type is DATE. I strongly suspect that
>> I'm handling my dates in the most verbose & confusing way possible,
> 
> True, you're not handling the date thing correctly, but you're close.
> 
> You need to understand how the date was entered into the database.
> 
> Check out:
> 
> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/date-and-time-functions.html#function_date
> 
> and review the DATE and NOW functions.

Tedd,

I just wanted to thank you again for calling my attention to the page above.

Today I needed to create a drop down list that would filter the display
of records based on a series of date ranges (expired, 1-30 days, 30-45
days, etc.) With the help of your link & my MySQL reference book--and
after some trial & error with syntax--I was able to use the DATEDIFF and
CURDATE functions in my queries to retrieve exactly the results I
needed. Well, almost--I'm still trying to figure out how to get only
items that are expired or have no expiration date set, but I have no
doubt I'll eventually work it out. In any event, I can see that this
method is wayyyyy better than whatever convoluted process I would have
come up with had you not nudged me in the right direction.

As soon as I figure that last bit out, I'm going to go back and see if I
can also some of the functions to improve the other code that I
initially posted. Even the smallest breakthrough feels like a huge
victory to me, so... Woohoo! *happy dance*

Bev :)



From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 14:37:27 2009
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 14:37:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
Message-ID: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>

We have suddenly started having issues with one of our servers with a
local hosting company. We have never had any issues at all for the 6-7
years we've used their servers (we have a total of 5-6). Anyway, this
one server went down last week, and tech support said:

"Your VPS has been either hacked or an insecure script has been used
to upload stuff. We have tar'ed up the data was being used
(/tmp/b.tar.gz) You need to have your developer take a look at your
sites code to determine any vulnerabilities"

To which I responded, "ok, assume that we believe all of our scripts
are secure. in looking at the logs, how do i pinpoint that someone
is/was trying to upload something?"

Tech support was less than helpful after that. So I pose the question
to the list. How do I pinpoint the issue? There are about five domains
running on the site, and we did not have any issues until we upgraded
a ZenCart install for one of the sites.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From tim_lists at o2group.com  Fri Sep 11 15:09:17 2009
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:09:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C1C1758-5358-4F11-9E8B-5D5E6F1A9E19@o2group.com>

I'd have a look at the owner and timestamps on the naughty files.  Are  
they owned by the web server user?  If so, check server logs in the  
period leading up to the file modification times.

If they're owned by some other user, make sure that user account is  
secure.

I've seen plenty of instances where someone thinks "it must be an  
insecure script", but it turned out that some user on the box had a  
bone-headed, easily brute-forced password.

-Tim

On Sep 11, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Randal Rust wrote:

> We have suddenly started having issues with one of our servers with a
> local hosting company. We have never had any issues at all for the 6-7
> years we've used their servers (we have a total of 5-6). Anyway, this
> one server went down last week, and tech support said:
>
> "Your VPS has been either hacked or an insecure script has been used
> to upload stuff. We have tar'ed up the data was being used
> (/tmp/b.tar.gz) You need to have your developer take a look at your
> sites code to determine any vulnerabilities"
>
> To which I responded, "ok, assume that we believe all of our scripts
> are secure. in looking at the logs, how do i pinpoint that someone
> is/was trying to upload something?"
>
> Tech support was less than helpful after that. So I pose the question
> to the list. How do I pinpoint the issue? There are about five domains
> running on the site, and we did not have any issues until we upgraded
> a ZenCart install for one of the sites.
>
> -- 
> Randal Rust
> R.Squared Communications
> www.r2communications.com
> 614-370-0036
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From chsnyder at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 15:11:56 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:11:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690909111211h48721200ud9c3a4da0737bfa3@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Randal Rust <randalrust at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> "Your VPS has been either hacked or an insecure script has been used
> to upload stuff. We have tar'ed up the data was being used
> (/tmp/b.tar.gz) You need to have your developer take a look at your
> sites code to determine any vulnerabilities"
>
> To which I responded, "ok, assume that we believe all of our scripts
> are secure. in looking at the logs, how do i pinpoint that someone
> is/was trying to upload something?"
>
> Tech support was less than helpful after that. So I pose the question
> to the list. How do I pinpoint the issue? There are about five domains
> running on the site, and we did not have any issues until we upgraded
> a ZenCart install for one of the sites.

They tar'd up the data from where? It might help you to know what
directory it was uploaded to. Although a clever rootkit would cover
its tracks, a clever kit wouldn't take down your server.

But really, the problem could be anywhere in the system. Was the OS up
to date? Latest version of PHP? Anything hand-compiled that hadn't
been updated in a long time? Are there FTP accounts (unencrypted)?
Anyone lazy about their passwords?

There are a lot of ways for a box to get hacked. But as Tim just
pointed out, it's usually something simple and obvious, like
connecting to FTP from Starbucks or emailing a password from an
internet cafe while on vacation.


From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 15:13:53 2009
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:13:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <4C1C1758-5358-4F11-9E8B-5D5E6F1A9E19@o2group.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C1C1758-5358-4F11-9E8B-5D5E6F1A9E19@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50909111213k2c234cc6gc840827de2d291bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Tim Lieberman <tim_lists at o2group.com> wrote:

> I'd have a look at the owner and timestamps on the naughty files. ?Are they
> owned by the web server user? ?If so, check server logs in the period
> leading up to the file modification times.

Well the problem there is that they've all been removed from the
server. And I deleted the local copy.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 15:16:53 2009
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:16:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <b76252690909111211h48721200ud9c3a4da0737bfa3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690909111211h48721200ud9c3a4da0737bfa3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50909111216v628f26d9vfa28780b87440392@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:

> They tar'd up the data from where? It might help you to know what
> directory it was uploaded to.

Yeah, they seem to be short on that detail, even though I posed the question.

> But really, the problem could be anywhere in the system.

I am fairly certain which domain it was. It's the one with an old
version of CakePHP that we inherited.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From chsnyder at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 15:26:37 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:26:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909111216v628f26d9vfa28780b87440392@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690909111211h48721200ud9c3a4da0737bfa3@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50909111216v628f26d9vfa28780b87440392@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690909111226x727b29a3o149fc37fa728e61c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Randal Rust <randalrust at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> They tar'd up the data from where? It might help you to know what
>> directory it was uploaded to.
>
> Yeah, they seem to be short on that detail, even though I posed the question.
>
>> But really, the problem could be anywhere in the system.
>
> I am fairly certain which domain it was. It's the one with an old
> version of CakePHP that we inherited.
>

Heh. You mean the version you can't upgrade because it would break everything?

Maybe it's time to see if you can put a Web Application Firewall in
front of the box or install mod_security or something along those
lines.

The answer to your original question (pinpointing the upload) is to
grep through the Apache logs for suspicious POSTs. Sounds like a lot
of fun if you don't have any idea when it happened.


From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 15:29:38 2009
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:29:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <b76252690909111226x727b29a3o149fc37fa728e61c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690909111211h48721200ud9c3a4da0737bfa3@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50909111216v628f26d9vfa28780b87440392@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690909111226x727b29a3o149fc37fa728e61c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50909111229w569d5937r303ba27c86e09072@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:

>> old version of CakePHP that we inherited.

> Heh. You mean the version you can't upgrade because it would break everything?

Of course:)

> Maybe it's time to see if you can put a Web Application Firewall in
> front of the box or install mod_security or something along those
> lines.

Good thought.

> The answer to your original question (pinpointing the upload) is to
> grep through the Apache logs for suspicious POSTs.

That's what I was thinking actually. There has to be something
*somewhere* that would give me an indication of where the issue lies.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Sep 11 16:11:29 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:11:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909111229w569d5937r303ba27c86e09072@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909111601100.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, Randal Rust wrote:

> That's what I was thinking actually. There has to be something
> *somewhere* that would give me an indication of where the issue lies.

Finding the source of a break-in like this can be notoriously difficult. 
Much better to wipe the drive and reinstall using the latest OS and 
software that can run your app (because you have no idea if any system 
binaries have been replaced with trojans).

If the breakin is through an OS vulnerability then keeping it up to date 
will help. Obviously, if it happens again with a up-to-date OS, then its 
possible its a vulnerability in PHP and/or your application code (in which 
case looking at POST requests in logs might help).

I once had an old server that had an IRC process running disguised as a 
regular Apache process. I only figured it out by observing open port 
numbers using netstat and finding the process with lsof. In the end I 
narrowed the problem down to an old component in a Joomla install that 
had a known vulnerability - updating that component fixed the problem.

But servers are constantly fending off brute-force ssh attacks (denyhosts 
is your friend for that kind of crap). These days I switch off all 
unnecessary services and make sure needed services are not exposed to the 
outside (MySQL listening on localhost, Postfix too is its just used for 
sending out, etc). On many systems this might been running a firewall 
with a very locked down configuration (protocol tracking is also my 
friend).


-- 
Aj.



From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 16:20:38 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:20:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909111601100.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <a9caffe50909111229w569d5937r303ba27c86e09072@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909111601100.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <68de37340909111320h108393ecke93a8791d7e95465@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, Randal Rust wrote:
>
>> That's what I was thinking actually. There has to be something
>> *somewhere* that would give me an indication of where the issue lies.
>
> Finding the source of a break-in like this can be notoriously difficult.
> Much better to wipe the drive and reinstall using the latest OS and
> software that can run your app (because you have no idea if any system
> binaries have been replaced with trojans).
>
> If the breakin is through an OS vulnerability then keeping it up to date
> will help. Obviously, if it happens again with a up-to-date OS, then its
> possible its a vulnerability in PHP and/or your application code (in which
> case looking at POST requests in logs might help).
>
> I once had an old server that had an IRC process running disguised as a
> regular Apache process. I only figured it out by observing open port
> numbers using netstat and finding the process with lsof. In the end I
> narrowed the problem down to an old component in a Joomla install that
> had a known vulnerability - updating that component fixed the problem.
>
> But servers are constantly fending off brute-force ssh attacks (denyhosts
> is your friend for that kind of crap). These days I switch off all
> unnecessary services and make sure needed services are not exposed to the
> outside (MySQL listening on localhost, Postfix too is its just used for
> sending out, etc). On many systems this might been running a firewall
> with a very locked down configuration (protocol tracking is also my
> friend).
>
>
> --
> Aj.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


Speaking of firewall lock down, I'm a big fan of the iptables
configurations that deny access to ALL ports that aren't explicitly
allowed, which for a vanilla web server would be 443/80 and 22 for ssh
(and if you're crazy deny access to 22 save for an IP-based whitelist,
I use a dyndns entry and re-resolve it every 15 minutes, so I can get
in wherever, but I'm the only person to ever have ssh access to the
server).  I'd make sure password authentication is off for ssh as well
and only use keyfile auth, as it's inherently more secure and less
prone to attack.  If you set your firewall up this way, you're pretty
much guaranteed that an exploit is in your webapp, as webservers and
openssh are very rarely open to exploits.


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Fri Sep 11 17:24:39 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:24:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090911212439.GA21713@panix.com>

Hey Randal:

> "Your VPS has been either hacked or an insecure script has been used
> to upload stuff. We have tar'ed up the data was being used
> (/tmp/b.tar.gz) You need to have your developer take a look at your
> sites code to determine any vulnerabilities"

They must have some evidence indicating a problem exists.  They need to 
tell you what that evidence is.  Then you'll have a direction to go in.  

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Sep 11 17:40:16 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:40:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <68de37340909111320h108393ecke93a8791d7e95465@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909111736100.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, Eddie Drapkin wrote:

> Speaking of firewall lock down, I'm a big fan of the iptables
> configurations that deny access to ALL ports that aren't explicitly
> allowed

Yes, that's much like what I do these days. Not only what's coming in, but 
also strict iptable rules on what's allowed to open a connection *from* 
the host too.


-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Sep 11 17:42:20 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <20090911212439.GA21713@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909111740320.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, Daniel Convissor wrote:

> They must have some evidence indicating a problem exists.  They need to 
> tell you what that evidence is.  Then you'll have a direction to go in.  

That's not always the case: they could have seen something as simple as a 
sudden increase in load or number of connections coming in/out of the 
machine, or just a boatload of port 25 traffic.



-- 
Aj.



From dan.horning at planetnoc.com  Sat Sep 12 07:30:20 2009
From: dan.horning at planetnoc.com (Daniel Horning)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 07:30:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909111137tddd7efeg459074aa418593ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01ca339c$69debc00$3d9c3400$@horning@planetnoc.com>

One thing I haven't seen is too much help with finding tools that make
problems like this scarce if not non-existant...

I've been using an application called Atomic Secured Linux - it just works
and the team behind it makes updates to the rules constantly

but it's not just mod-sec rules - it also has some things to help you
enforce good password policy

http://tinyurl.com/asl-danhorning

hope that also helps out some server admins.
--
Dan Horning

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.
dan.horning at planetnoc.com :: http://www.americandigitalservices.com
1-518-444-0213 x502 . toll free 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133
15 Third Street, PO Box 746, Troy, NY 12180 (by appointment only)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
> bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Randal Rust
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:37 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
> 
> We have suddenly started having issues with one of our servers with a
> local hosting company. We have never had any issues at all for the 6-7
> years we've used their servers (we have a total of 5-6). Anyway, this
> one server went down last week, and tech support said:
> 
> "Your VPS has been either hacked or an insecure script has been used
> to upload stuff. We have tar'ed up the data was being used
> (/tmp/b.tar.gz) You need to have your developer take a look at your
> sites code to determine any vulnerabilities"
> 
> To which I responded, "ok, assume that we believe all of our scripts
> are secure. in looking at the logs, how do i pinpoint that someone
> is/was trying to upload something?"
> 
> Tech support was less than helpful after that. So I pose the question
> to the list. How do I pinpoint the issue? There are about five domains
> running on the site, and we did not have any issues until we upgraded
> a ZenCart install for one of the sites.
> 
> --
> Randal Rust
> R.Squared Communications
> www.r2communications.com
> 614-370-0036
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 12 20:17:06 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 00:17:06 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Does anyone have any good naming conventions for mysql databases and tables and columns?  I'm developing a complex lamp project now, and my normal convention doesn't seem to want to work too well for this project - there are a few conflicts. 



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Sat Sep 12 20:38:51 2009
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:38:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>

In my experience, the most important thing is consistency.  Almost  
everything else is a matter of taste.

For instance, some folks like to name columns with the table name as a  
prefix on every column (except foreign keys):

create table a(
	a_id int,
	a_value varchar(64),
	a_created datetime
);

create table b (
	b_id int,
	a_id int references a.a_id
	b_value varchar(128),
	b_created datetime
);

This is a smart thing to do as every column, across all tables, has a  
unique name (unless it's a foreign key)

However, it can create a lot of typing, which can be annoying.

On the other hand, you can be more concise:

create table a(
	id int,
	value varchar(64)
	created datetime
);

create table b(
	id int,
	value varchar(64),
	created datetime
);

This saves some typing, but can create annoying ambiguity.  Join  
operations end up requiring more specific selection critera (SELECT  
a.title as a_title, b.title as b_title).

I used to use the former method almost exclusively.  However, as I  
started playing with various frameworks, I've switched to the latter  
as those I've worked with kind of expect it.  Probably because various  
_call() based magic ends up looking nicer in userland code.

If you have more specific considerations, feel free to get more  
specific.

-Tim




On Sep 12, 2009, at 8:17 PM, matt at atopia.net wrote:

> Does anyone have any good naming conventions for mysql databases and  
> tables and columns?  I'm developing a complex lamp project now, and  
> my normal convention doesn't seem to want to work too well for this  
> project - there are a few conflicts.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 12 21:09:35 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:09:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>

> I used to use the former method almost exclusively.  However, as I started 
> playing with various frameworks, I've switched to the latter as those I've 
> worked with kind of expect it.  Probably because various _call() based magic 
> ends up looking nicer in userland code.
>
> If you have more specific considerations, feel free to get more specific.

Hi Tim,

Actually, you probably just covered about 99% of what I've read today, 
which is both a good and a bad thing - first, it's good because I know 
that information is out dated, but bad because I still have a few 
questions!  But I'll try to clear my questions up.

I've always used the second method you recommend.  It works well for a 
schema like this:

CREATE TABLE `country` (
   `id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
   `name` varchar(100) NOT NULL,
   PRIMARY KEY  (`id`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1

CREATE TABLE `state` (
   `id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
   `county_id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL,
   `name` varchar(100) NOT NULL,
   PRIMARY KEY  (`id`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1

CREATE TABLE `city` (
   `id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
   `state_id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL,
   `name` varchar(100) NOT NULL,
   PRIMARY KEY  (`id`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1

each city has a state_id, and each state, has a country_id.  And since 
cities, states, and countries all are sort of self explanatory, the schema 
sort of documents itself.  But what if you're developing a billing system? 
That's where it's hard, because things are different:

For instance:

CREATE TABLE `account` (
   `id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
   `type_id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL,
   `companyName` varchar(25) NOT NULL,
   PRIMARY KEY  (`id`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1

CREATE TABLE `account_type` (
   `id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
   `type` varchar(255) NOT NULL,
   PRIMARY KEY  (`id`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1

CREATE TABLE `customer` (
   `id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
   `account_id` int(11) unsigned NOT NULL,
   `firstname` varchar(25) NOT NULL,
   `lastname` varchar(25) NOT NULL,
   PRIMARY KEY  (`id`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1

As you can see, each customer as an account_id.  But each account also has 
type_id.  I chose to do this like I did above, but why didn't I call the 
tables:

customer
customer_account
customer_account_type

After all, that would have worked the same way, right?  So I never really 
know where to put the top level.  Is it just up to the person?  My guess 
is, does it just only matter if the table names aren't self explanatory? 
For instance, if I just had a table called "type", that isn't really 
verbose, which is why I put account_ in front of it.

Also, as you can see, I only tend to use underscores when I'm referencing 
a column in another table.  type_id for instance is account_type.id. 
Which is why I did "firstname" or "companyName" (I did this on purpose to 
show two possibilities).  Which one is the better one to use? 
first_name/last_name/company_name or firstName, lastName, companyName? 
The problem is, if I use first_name, but I'm also using type_id, then some 
people might think that first_name references a column in the first (or a 
similarly named) table called "name".

Thanks for your help!

-Matt



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Sat Sep 12 21:37:19 2009
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:37:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>


On Sep 12, 2009, at 9:09 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> I used to use the former method almost exclusively.  However, as I  
>> started playing with various frameworks, I've switched to the  
>> latter as those I've worked with kind of expect it.  Probably  
>> because various _call() based magic ends up looking nicer in  
>> userland code.
>>
>> If you have more specific considerations, feel free to get more  
>> specific.
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> Actually, you probably just covered about 99% of what I've read  
> today, which is both a good and a bad thing - first, it's good  
> because I know that information is out dated, but bad because I  
> still have a few questions!  But I'll try to clear my questions up.

[snip]
>
> As you can see, each customer as an account_id.  But each account  
> also has type_id.  I chose to do this like I did above, but why  
> didn't I call the tables:
>
> customer
> customer_account
> customer_account_type
>
> After all, that would have worked the same way, right?  So I never  
> really know where to put the top level.  Is it just up to the  
> person?  My guess is, does it just only matter if the table names  
> aren't self explanatory? For instance, if I just had a table called  
> "type", that isn't really verbose, which is why I put account_ in  
> front of it.

For lookup tables like an "account type", I'd certainly call the table  
"account_type", and not just "type".  Eventually you'll have an "order  
type" to deal with, so ... yeah.

In the larger picture, you want to maintain enough specificity to keep  
things from getting confusing.  This is largely a function of the  
domain.  However, domains tend to grow, so it's better to err slightly  
on the side of verbose specificity.  For example, it's probably not a  
terrible idea to use "customer_account" instead of just "account", in  
case 12 months from now you need two new kinds of ".+_account"s


> Also, as you can see, I only tend to use underscores when I'm  
> referencing a column in another table.  type_id for instance is  
> account_type.id. Which is why I did "firstname" or "companyName" (I  
> did this on purpose to show two possibilities).  Which one is the  
> better one to use? first_name/last_name/company_name or firstName,  
> lastName, companyName? The problem is, if I use first_name, but I'm  
> also using type_id, then some people might think that first_name  
> references a column in the first (or a similarly named) table called  
> "name".

For column names, it's tempting to give a specific meaning to an  
underscore, like you do.

I tend to avoid that, as underscores can be really useful to keep  
things legible.  lowerCamelCase, to me, is just kind of ugly in myslql  
and other rdbmses where identifiers are case-insensitive.

If you really want, I suppose you could use a standard where a double  
underscore indicates some foreign key: account__id REFERENCES account.id






From rsd at electronink.com  Sat Sep 12 21:44:57 2009
From: rsd at electronink.com (Russ Demarest)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:44:57 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <57998CBB-1CF6-4A6D-A758-ACA3FBF0B376@electronink.com>

Matt,

This is how I originally learned it way back when and still believe.
SQL should read almost like english.

Tables are named in the plural.
Columns are singular.
id columns are the table name singular "_id".

For example.

create table users (
	user_id int auto_increment not null,
	username varchar(20)
	);


I have used simple id columns which works fine too but using the  
table_id concept can make things easier down the road.

Perhaps explaining what your current method is might make it easier  
for us to suggest a solution.

Hope it Helps.

On Sep 12, 2009, at 8:17 PM, matt at atopia.net wrote:

> Does anyone have any good naming conventions for mysql databases and  
> tables and columns?  I'm developing a complex lamp project now, and  
> my normal convention doesn't seem to want to work too well for this  
> project - there are a few conflicts.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 12 21:45:00 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:45:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>

> For lookup tables like an "account type", I'd certainly call the table 
> "account_type", and not just "type".  Eventually you'll have an "order type" 
> to deal with, so ... yeah.
>
> In the larger picture, you want to maintain enough specificity to keep things 
> from getting confusing.  This is largely a function of the domain.  However, 
> domains tend to grow, so it's better to err slightly on the side of verbose 
> specificity.  For example, it's probably not a terrible idea to use 
> "customer_account" instead of just "account", in case 12 months from now you 
> need two new kinds of ".+_account"s

But account is the "top level".  Every customer has an account.  Every 
account has a type.  So really, the top level is account type, because 
that's the only table out of the three that has no "parent" of it's own. 
But why would I create a customer and a customer_account table?  Sure, 
each customer has one and only one account, so it makes sense, just like 
each account has one and only one type.   But:

account -> account type
customer -> account

aren't the same "sort of relationship" to me, even though they are both 
many to one relationships.  Tying the account table to customer at this 
point (customer_account) would be bad, because every service in the 
"service" table has one and only one account as well - so why wouldn't we 
call it service_account and service?  The same sort of thing.  So at that 
point, I would probably do:

account
account_type
customer
service
service_definition
service_type
invoice
invoice_type

but at that point, there really is no standard.  I sort of just picked 
"meaningful" top level tables.

Bah, it's all confusing to me :) I guess there really is no way to do it. 
If there are 10 levels of one:many relationships, you can't underscore 
them all out.

one
one_two
one_two_three
one_two_three_four

would get quite confusing ;)


> I tend to avoid that, as underscores can be really useful to keep things 
> legible.  lowerCamelCase, to me, is just kind of ugly in myslql and other 
> rdbmses where identifiers are case-insensitive.
>
> If you really want, I suppose you could use a standard where a double 
> underscore indicates some foreign key: account__id REFERENCES account.id

OK.

So you would do something like:

first_name
account_id
last_name
service_definition_id

Stuff like that?  Even though first_name is just a field (and last_name), 
while account_id is the id column in the account table and 
service_definition_id is the id column in the service_definition table?

And if you did the latter, would you do:

service_definition__id at that point?  or service__definition__id?

Thanks!


From rsd at electronink.com  Sat Sep 12 21:55:10 2009
From: rsd at electronink.com (Russ Demarest)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:55:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <1EE62707-ADA1-4C92-8FA3-8D2E8E916C9A@electronink.com>

Matt,

	It is really hard to talk about tables without understanding the data  
needs. If you want to come up with an example of what you need to do  
we could all suggest structures. I don't really get the levels concept  
of a relational db, but what do I know :)

	Part of good db design is to plan way into the future. Your customers  
may only have one account now, but is it possible in the future they  
could have 2? These are HUGE decisions that can come back with really  
big teeth.

	What is a service?

	Russ

On Sep 12, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> For lookup tables like an "account type", I'd certainly call the  
>> table "account_type", and not just "type".  Eventually you'll have  
>> an "order type" to deal with, so ... yeah.
>>
>> In the larger picture, you want to maintain enough specificity to  
>> keep things from getting confusing.  This is largely a function of  
>> the domain.  However, domains tend to grow, so it's better to err  
>> slightly on the side of verbose specificity.  For example, it's  
>> probably not a terrible idea to use "customer_account" instead of  
>> just "account", in case 12 months from now you need two new kinds  
>> of ".+_account"s
>
> But account is the "top level".  Every customer has an account.   
> Every account has a type.  So really, the top level is account type,  
> because that's the only table out of the three that has no "parent"  
> of it's own. But why would I create a customer and a  
> customer_account table?  Sure, each customer has one and only one  
> account, so it makes sense, just like each account has one and only  
> one type.   But:
>
> account -> account type
> customer -> account
>
> aren't the same "sort of relationship" to me, even though they are  
> both many to one relationships.  Tying the account table to customer  
> at this point (customer_account) would be bad, because every service  
> in the "service" table has one and only one account as well - so why  
> wouldn't we call it service_account and service?  The same sort of  
> thing.  So at that point, I would probably do:
>
> account
> account_type
> customer
> service
> service_definition
> service_type
> invoice
> invoice_type
>
> but at that point, there really is no standard.  I sort of just  
> picked "meaningful" top level tables.
>
> Bah, it's all confusing to me :) I guess there really is no way to  
> do it. If there are 10 levels of one:many relationships, you can't  
> underscore them all out.
>
> one
> one_two
> one_two_three
> one_two_three_four
>
> would get quite confusing ;)
>
>
>> I tend to avoid that, as underscores can be really useful to keep  
>> things legible.  lowerCamelCase, to me, is just kind of ugly in  
>> myslql and other rdbmses where identifiers are case-insensitive.
>>
>> If you really want, I suppose you could use a standard where a  
>> double underscore indicates some foreign key: account__id  
>> REFERENCES account.id
>
> OK.
>
> So you would do something like:
>
> first_name
> account_id
> last_name
> service_definition_id
>
> Stuff like that?  Even though first_name is just a field (and  
> last_name), while account_id is the id column in the account table  
> and service_definition_id is the id column in the service_definition  
> table?
>
> And if you did the latter, would you do:
>
> service_definition__id at that point?  or service__definition__id?
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 12 22:02:10 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:02:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1EE62707-ADA1-4C92-8FA3-8D2E8E916C9A@electronink.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
	<1EE62707-ADA1-4C92-8FA3-8D2E8E916C9A@electronink.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122156050.18677@pluto.atopia.net>

> 	Part of good db design is to plan way into the future. Your customers 
> may only have one account now, but is it possible in the future they could 
> have 2? These are HUGE decisions that can come back with really big teeth.

Well, this is all in an example.  Even if a customer could have more than 
one accounts, allowing for a many:many, I'd still have the same issue 
figuring out naming schemes.

> 	What is a service?

"Email Hosting", "Web Hosting", etc.  But I'm not designing a billing 
system.  This is just an example.  But I'd have these same questions if I 
was listing something else, like a forum, etc.


From rsd at electronink.com  Sat Sep 12 22:09:30 2009
From: rsd at electronink.com (Russ Demarest)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:09:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122156050.18677@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
	<1EE62707-ADA1-4C92-8FA3-8D2E8E916C9A@electronink.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122156050.18677@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <8CD376C2-9D05-40E4-A52A-B6F6CBB02185@electronink.com>

Well a customer to account would be a one to many.

customers
	customer_id
	name
	....

accounts
	account_id
	name
	customer_id
	...

services
	service_id
	name
	...

account_services
	account_service_id
	account_id
	service_id
	start_date
	end_date
	...

So you have a one to many customers to accounts relation. You have a  
one to many accounts to account_services and a one to many services to  
account_services.

Not sure if I am helping :/

Good luck

On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:02 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> 	Part of good db design is to plan way into the future. Your  
>> customers may only have one account now, but is it possible in the  
>> future they could have 2? These are HUGE decisions that can come  
>> back with really big teeth.
>
> Well, this is all in an example.  Even if a customer could have more  
> than one accounts, allowing for a many:many, I'd still have the same  
> issue figuring out naming schemes.
>
>> 	What is a service?
>
> "Email Hosting", "Web Hosting", etc.  But I'm not designing a  
> billing system.  This is just an example.  But I'd have these same  
> questions if I was listing something else, like a forum, etc.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From tim_lists at o2group.com  Sat Sep 12 22:19:06 2009
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:19:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <AC8B3D08-5F98-4C75-A18D-BE294B67A512@o2group.com>


On Sep 12, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> For lookup tables like an "account type", I'd certainly call the  
>> table "account_type", and not just "type".  Eventually you'll have  
>> an "order type" to deal with, so ... yeah.
>>
>> In the larger picture, you want to maintain enough specificity to  
>> keep things from getting confusing.  This is largely a function of  
>> the domain.  However, domains tend to grow, so it's better to err  
>> slightly on the side of verbose specificity.  For example, it's  
>> probably not a terrible idea to use "customer_account" instead of  
>> just "account", in case 12 months from now you need two new kinds  
>> of ".+_account"s
>
> But account is the "top level".  Every customer has an account.   
> Every account has a type.  So really, the top level is account type,  
> because that's the only table out of the three that has no "parent"  
> of it's own. But why would I create a customer and a  
> customer_account table?  Sure, each customer has one and only one  
> account, so it makes sense, just like each account has one and only  
> one type.   But:
>
> account -> account type
> customer -> account
>
> aren't the same "sort of relationship" to me, even though they are  
> both many to one relationships.  Tying the account table to customer  
> at this point (customer_account) would be bad, because every service  
> in the "service" table has one and only one account as well - so why  
> wouldn't we call it service_account and service?  The same sort of  
> thing.  So at that point, I would probably do:
>
> account
> account_type
> customer
> service
> service_definition
> service_type
> invoice
> invoice_type
>
> but at that point, there really is no standard.  I sort of just  
> picked "meaningful" top level tables.

What's wrong with that?  I think you've got it right -- it all comes  
down to the domain you're modeling.

>
> Bah, it's all confusing to me :) I guess there really is no way to  
> do it. If there are 10 levels of one:many relationships, you can't  
> underscore them all out.
>
> one
> one_two
> one_two_three
> one_two_three_four
>
> would get quite confusing ;)

True.  I don't think a hard and fast rule is appropriate here.


>
>> I tend to avoid that, as underscores can be really useful to keep  
>> things legible.  lowerCamelCase, to me, is just kind of ugly in  
>> myslql and other rdbmses where identifiers are case-insensitive.
>>
>> If you really want, I suppose you could use a standard where a  
>> double underscore indicates some foreign key: account__id  
>> REFERENCES account.id
>
> OK.
>
> So you would do something like:
>
> first_name
> account_id
> last_name
> service_definition_id
>

That's pretty much what I'd actually do in practice.  In every case I  
can think of, the trailing "_id" is enough to indicate that this is a  
foreign key.


> Stuff like that?  Even though first_name is just a field (and  
> last_name), while account_id is the id column in the account table  
> and service_definition_id is the id column in the service_definition  
> table?

Right.  Like I said, the underscore doesn't have any special semantic  
meaning, unless the following two characters are an "i" and then a "d"

> And if you did the latter, would you do:
>
> service_definition__id at that point?  or service__definition__id?

Were I doing things that way, I'd do the former.

But it's just a thought.  I've never done things that way, and it  
seems confusing -- the visual difference between _ and __ is too small.

-Tim




From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 12 22:27:39 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:27:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <8CD376C2-9D05-40E4-A52A-B6F6CBB02185@electronink.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
	<1EE62707-ADA1-4C92-8FA3-8D2E8E916C9A@electronink.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122156050.18677@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8CD376C2-9D05-40E4-A52A-B6F6CBB02185@electronink.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122226530.19479@pluto.atopia.net>

> account_services
> 	account_service_id
> 	account_id
> 	service_id
> 	start_date
> 	end_date
> 	...
>
> So you have a one to many customers to accounts relation. You have a one to 
> many accounts to account_services and a one to many services to 
> account_services.

Right, although there, I'd probably do it a different way, where services 
would be the listing of service  and service_definition would be the 
definitions of services.  That way, each record in "service" would have 
definition_id which would map to service_definition.id.


From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 12 22:29:00 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:29:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <AC8B3D08-5F98-4C75-A18D-BE294B67A512@o2group.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
	<AC8B3D08-5F98-4C75-A18D-BE294B67A512@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122228290.19479@pluto.atopia.net>

> Right.  Like I said, the underscore doesn't have any special semantic 
> meaning, unless the following two characters are an "i" and then a "d"

Makes sense :)

> But it's just a thought.  I've never done things that way, and it seems 
> confusing -- the visual difference between _ and __ is too small.

Agreed.

OK, thanks!  Turns out, I've sort of been doing things this way all along, 
minus the _ issue.  Thanks for your input!


From rsd at electronink.com  Sat Sep 12 22:40:54 2009
From: rsd at electronink.com (Russ Demarest)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:40:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122226530.19479@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<39F2800A-10AE-4A25-AD28-BCFF0890B7CC@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122139040.18206@pluto.atopia.net>
	<1EE62707-ADA1-4C92-8FA3-8D2E8E916C9A@electronink.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122156050.18677@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8CD376C2-9D05-40E4-A52A-B6F6CBB02185@electronink.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122226530.19479@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <33E86A02-5B24-4861-BFC2-5DC37F244738@electronink.com>

I think the definition would be in the services table.
The entity is a service, hosting or something. The columns in services  
should define the entity (serivce).
So the service_id in account_services ties back to what the service is.



On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> account_services
>> 	account_service_id
>> 	account_id
>> 	service_id
>> 	start_date
>> 	end_date
>> 	...
>>
>> So you have a one to many customers to accounts relation. You have  
>> a one to many accounts to account_services and a one to many  
>> services to account_services.
>
> Right, although there, I'd probably do it a different way, where  
> services would be the listing of service  and service_definition  
> would be the definitions of services.  That way, each record in  
> "service" would have definition_id which would map to  
> service_definition.id.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Sat Sep 12 23:12:47 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:12:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <20090913031247.GA9777@panix.com>

Hi Matt:

Here's my input on this same topic from a couple weeks ago on this list:
http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/028910.html

Good night,

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From consult at covenantedesign.com  Sat Sep 12 22:50:26 2009
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (CED)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:50:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909111740320.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909111740320.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <4AAC5DF2.60209@covenantedesign.com>

Ajai Khattri wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, Daniel Convissor wrote:
>
>   
>> They must have some evidence indicating a problem exists.  They need to 
>> tell you what that evidence is.  Then you'll have a direction to go in.  
>>     
>
> That's not always the case: they could have seen something as simple as a 
> sudden increase in load or number of connections coming in/out of the 
> machine, or just a boatload of port 25 traffic.
>
>
>
>   
If that was the case, they wouldn't have known which files to "tar up". 
Depending on how they were tar'd you should be able to see the path by 
querying the index of the tar file.

Not to re-iterate what Chris was saying, but, you need information in 
order to take appropriate action.
All things considered there are at least several thousand potential root 
causes to your issue, unless you have some direction and cooperation 
from the hosting provider.

Attached is a basic template/list I rundown with clients (I do a lot of 
security on the side, and at work too. :P ) who experience similar 
issues, I have had these be well over 30 pages, as some clients really 
have no idea how many entities are touching their systems. I don't want 
it to appear overwhelming or impossible to successfully discover the 
root-cause of your particular incident; but unless you can get 
root-level log/AAA access, or some serious cooperation from the hosting 
company, you're likely not going to be able to cover all the bases.

P.S. Don't pay for ASL, you can build it yourself, just do a little 
googlin' :o)

-Ed "paranoid" Prevost

-- 
<img src="http://covenantedesign.com/logo.jpg" border ="0">
995 Maple Hill Road
Castleton, New York 12033
518-331-5061
Consult at CovenanteDesign.com

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From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 12 23:19:39 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:19:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <20090913031247.GA9777@panix.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090913031247.GA9777@panix.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122319220.20567@pluto.atopia.net>

> Here's my input on this same topic from a couple weeks ago on this list:
> http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/028910.html

I must have missed that.  Sorry for the repost.

So you would recommend using tablename_ in the beginning of every field in 
a table?


From ajai at bitblit.net  Sun Sep 13 00:23:31 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 00:23:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Issues with server getting hacked
In-Reply-To: <4AAC5DF2.60209@covenantedesign.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909130022130.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, CED wrote:

> If that was the case, they wouldn't have known which files to "tar up".

I assumed they tar'ed up the web application and logs. Hardly a 
rapier-like analysis...


 
-- 
Aj.



From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Sep 13 07:51:31 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:51:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <4AACDCC3.90505@gmx.net>

Tim Lieberman wrote:
> In my experience, the most important thing is consistency.  Almost 
> everything else is a matter of taste.

Exactly!

> However, it can create a lot of typing, which can be annoying.

While that is a good warning, it shouldn't be a reason to shy away from 
clearly named tables and columns. I think it is better to type a bit more than 
keep guessing that column drvtsn is for driver_trip_sheet_number. Depending on 
which tool is used to craft the queries you may have intellisense and the 
typing is less of an issue after a while.

Keep in mind that there is a chance that someone other than yourself has to 
deal with the tables and code later. And even you will be happier when you 
don't have to permanently guess half a year from now. I think it is better to 
deal with the annoyance of typing than with the annoyance of ambiguitiy. A 
mistyped column name will make your query fail, ambiguity will possibly not 
while being still wrong.

Other than that, Tim covered it all.

David


From tedd at sperling.com  Sun Sep 13 08:48:53 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 08:48:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-
	@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <p06240800c6d294b27fdf@[192.168.0.100]>

At 9:09 PM -0400 9/12/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
>For instance:
>
>CREATE TABLE `account` (
>-snip-
>
>CREATE TABLE `account_type` (
>-snip-
>
>CREATE TABLE `customer` (
>-snip-
>
>As you can see, each customer as an account_id.  But each account 
>also has type_id.  I chose to do this like I did above, but why 
>didn't I call the tables:
>
>customer
>customer_account
>customer_account_type
>
>After all, that would have worked the same way, right?

No.

I see what you are saying, but "customer" is as different as 
"account" is to "account_type". They are all different things. Why 
confuse the matter by adding a customer prefix? There is no need.

Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then your 
naming should be:

customer_customer
customer_account
customer_account_type

Do you see what I mean? That practice doesn't provide any clarity -- 
it only confuses things.

One additional consideration, which was discussed last week, was not 
entitling the index of all tables as "id", but rather adding the 
table name to the id, such as:

customer_id
account_id
account_type_id

That makes sense to me because when you're dealing with a bunch of 
tables, a variable named "id" might be used incorrectly OR 
overwritten.

For example, using:

SELECT * FROM customer WHERE customer_id = '$customer_id'

is just as easy to read as:

SELECT * FROM customer WHERE id = '$id'

But later in the code, after reading many different tables, what 
table does "$id" relate to? It's not clear is it? But there is no 
confusion with $customer_id is there?

HTH's

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 11:56:58 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:56:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c6d294b27fdf@[192.168.0.100]>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-
	@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<p06240800c6d294b27fdf@[192.168.0.100]>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909131152150.43890@pluto.atopia.net>

> Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then your naming 
> should be:
>
> customer_customer
> customer_account
> customer_account_type

I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  I was 
simply renaming the tables based on the one:many relationships I have 
inside the tables.

account
account_type
customer

since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an account_type 
id, I could have picked customer to be the main level table, and just 
references out from there:

customer.account_id -> account.id ->
 	account.type_id -> account_type.id
 		-> ..... ->...
 			-> ...... -> ...

Really inefficient, but it was another method of "standardizing" (which to 
me, gives no clarity, because as I've explained in one of my other emails, 
starting at one top level will make things confusing.  And then what 
happens if some new table references customer.id as customer_id?  like an 
emails table?  Then I'm really confused:

email
email_customer
email_customer_account
email_customer_account_type

I know this is messed up, but it was my thinking for a while as I tried to 
create a "Perfect" relational standard.  And I had no many to many 
relationships at that point, so it was really easy to do, but very 
ineffective.

> One additional consideration, which was discussed last week, was not 
> entitling the index of all tables as "id", but rather adding the table name 
> to the id, such as:
>
> customer_id
> account_id
> account_type_id
>
> That makes sense to me because when you're dealing with a bunch of tables, a 
> variable named "id" might be used incorrectly OR overwritten.

This is what I've usually done in the past.

> For example, using:
>
> SELECT * FROM customer WHERE customer_id = '$customer_id'
>
> is just as easy to read as:
>
> SELECT * FROM customer WHERE id = '$id'
>
> But later in the code, after reading many different tables, what table does 
> "$id" relate to? It's not clear is it? But there is no confusion with 
> $customer_id is there?
>
> HTH's

Thanks for your input!

-Matt


From tedd at sperling.com  Sun Sep 13 20:28:02 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:28:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909131152150.43890@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-
	@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3B4F27FE-7608-4CB4-AB24-35253F7EC085@o2group.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909122055250.17080@pluto.atopia.net>
	<p06240800c6d294b27fdf@[192.168.0.100]>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909131152150.43890@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <p06240801c6d339d6d102@[192.168.0.100]>

At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
>>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then 
>>your naming should be:
>>
>>customer_customer
>>customer_account
>>customer_account_type
>
>I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  I 
>was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many relationships I 
>have inside the tables.
>
>account
>account_type
>customer
>
>since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
>account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main level 
>table, and just references out from there:

Mat:

Main level table?

I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -- 
there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you are 
addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or whatever. 
They are nothing more than data and each has there own relationships.

Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
account_type, right?

If so, then your customer table should only contain the account_id, 
but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.

To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
(using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
(account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.

customer: account_id
account: account_type_id
account_type: type

In any event, that's the way I would do it.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Sep 13 20:40:45 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252888845.27645@coral.he.net>

You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key account_id 
and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
account_type_id...

That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on account_id 
because there is already a relationship in place to find the type of 
account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said in 
essence as well.

Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each customer 
has only one account.

Kristina

> At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then 
> >>your naming should be:
> >>
> >>customer_customer
> >>customer_account
> >>customer_account_type
> >
> >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  I 
> >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many relationships I 
> >have inside the tables.
> >
> >account
> >account_type
> >customer
> >
> >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main level 
> >table, and just references out from there:
> 
> Mat:
> 
> Main level table?
> 
> I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -- 
> there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you are 
> addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or whatever. 
> They are nothing more than data and each has there own relationships.
> 
> Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
> account_type, right?
> 
> If so, then your customer table should only contain the account_id, 
> but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> 
> To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> 
> customer: account_id
> account: account_type_id
> account_type: type
> 
> In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> 
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 






From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 21:28:42 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:28:42 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252888845.27645@coral.he.net>
References: <1252888845.27645@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1400656749-1252892098-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1775098127-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie the accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer information changes per account even if its the same person. 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key account_id 
and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
account_type_id...

That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on account_id 
because there is already a relationship in place to find the type of 
account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said in 
essence as well.

Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each customer 
has only one account.

Kristina

> At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then 
> >>your naming should be:
> >>
> >>customer_customer
> >>customer_account
> >>customer_account_type
> >
> >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  I 
> >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many relationships I 
> >have inside the tables.
> >
> >account
> >account_type
> >customer
> >
> >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main level 
> >table, and just references out from there:
> 
> Mat:
> 
> Main level table?
> 
> I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -- 
> there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you are 
> addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or whatever. 
> They are nothing more than data and each has there own relationships.
> 
> Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
> account_type, right?
> 
> If so, then your customer table should only contain the account_id, 
> but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> 
> To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> 
> customer: account_id
> account: account_type_id
> account_type: type
> 
> In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> 
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Sep 13 21:46:25 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252892785.9329@coral.he.net>

OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated anew 
upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  Does 
each customer have only 1 account?

Kristina

> Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie the 
accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer 
information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key account_id 
> and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> account_type_id...
> 
> That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on account_id 
> because there is already a relationship in place to find the type of 
> account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said in 
> essence as well.
> 
> Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each customer 
> has only one account.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then 
> > >>your naming should be:
> > >>
> > >>customer_customer
> > >>customer_account
> > >>customer_account_type
> > >
> > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  I 
> > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many relationships 
I 
> > >have inside the tables.
> > >
> > >account
> > >account_type
> > >customer
> > >
> > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main level 
> > >table, and just references out from there:
> > 
> > Mat:
> > 
> > Main level table?
> > 
> > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -- 
> > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you are 
> > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or whatever. 
> > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
relationships.
> > 
> > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
> > account_type, right?
> > 
> > If so, then your customer table should only contain the account_id, 
> > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > 
> > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > 
> > customer: account_id
> > account: account_type_id
> > account_type: type
> > 
> > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > tedd
> > 
> > -- 
> > -------
> > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
http://earthstones.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 






From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 22:03:21 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:03:21 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252892785.9329@coral.he.net>
References: <1252892785.9329@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1273784048-1252893803-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1820595522-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times per customer record. 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated anew 
upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  Does 
each customer have only 1 account?

Kristina

> Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie the 
accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer 
information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key account_id 
> and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> account_type_id...
> 
> That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on account_id 
> because there is already a relationship in place to find the type of 
> account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said in 
> essence as well.
> 
> Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each customer 
> has only one account.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then 
> > >>your naming should be:
> > >>
> > >>customer_customer
> > >>customer_account
> > >>customer_account_type
> > >
> > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  I 
> > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many relationships 
I 
> > >have inside the tables.
> > >
> > >account
> > >account_type
> > >customer
> > >
> > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main level 
> > >table, and just references out from there:
> > 
> > Mat:
> > 
> > Main level table?
> > 
> > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -- 
> > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you are 
> > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or whatever. 
> > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
relationships.
> > 
> > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
> > account_type, right?
> > 
> > If so, then your customer table should only contain the account_id, 
> > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > 
> > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > 
> > customer: account_id
> > account: account_type_id
> > account_type: type
> > 
> > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > tedd
> > 
> > -- 
> > -------
> > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
http://earthstones.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 22:08:05 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:08:05 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1273784048-1252893803-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1820595522-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1252892785.9329@coral.he.net><1273784048-1252893803-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1820595522-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <138793769-1252894085-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-206219487-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Tedd,

There are always top level tables in your schema, at least in my opinion. For instance, reference tables that do key -> value pairs tend to not be "root" level tables in a schema. Just my opinion. 

Also, I never said account_type would be stored inside the customer table. If you meant my reference to customer_account_type, that was just a naming scheme for a table only, which I was referring to as inefficient but would be a natural progression if I was to be obsessive about always documenting table relationships inside the table names. 

Based on the feedback I have gotten in this thread, the way I have done things in the past is okay, except ill now be adding underscores to column names for more than just foreign key identifiers. 

Thanks all!

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: matt at atopia.net

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:03:21 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times per customer record. 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated anew 
upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  Does 
each customer have only 1 account?

Kristina

> Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie the 
accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer 
information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key account_id 
> and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> account_type_id...
> 
> That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on account_id 
> because there is already a relationship in place to find the type of 
> account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said in 
> essence as well.
> 
> Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each customer 
> has only one account.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", then 
> > >>your naming should be:
> > >>
> > >>customer_customer
> > >>customer_account
> > >>customer_account_type
> > >
> > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  I 
> > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many relationships 
I 
> > >have inside the tables.
> > >
> > >account
> > >account_type
> > >customer
> > >
> > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main level 
> > >table, and just references out from there:
> > 
> > Mat:
> > 
> > Main level table?
> > 
> > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -- 
> > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you are 
> > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or whatever. 
> > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
relationships.
> > 
> > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
> > account_type, right?
> > 
> > If so, then your customer table should only contain the account_id, 
> > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > 
> > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > 
> > customer: account_id
> > account: account_type_id
> > account_type: type
> > 
> > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > tedd
> > 
> > -- 
> > -------
> > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
http://earthstones.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Sep 13 22:12:34 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252894354.14318@coral.he.net>

If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then normalization 
dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields

login_id
customer_id
login_time
login_IP
session_id

or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each time the 
customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the assigned 
login_id for that session.

Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.

So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer logged 
in.

Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each time, 
and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not be the 
case. 

Kristina



> Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times per 
customer record. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated anew 
> upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  Does 
> each customer have only 1 account?
> 
> Kristina
> 
> > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie 
the 
> accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer 
> information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
account_id 
> > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > account_type_id...
> > 
> > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
account_id 
> > because there is already a relationship in place to find the type 
of 
> > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said in 
> > essence as well.
> > 
> > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
customer 
> > has only one account.
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", 
then 
> > > >>your naming should be:
> > > >>
> > > >>customer_customer
> > > >>customer_account
> > > >>customer_account_type
> > > >
> > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  
I 
> > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
relationships 
> I 
> > > >have inside the tables.
> > > >
> > > >account
> > > >account_type
> > > >customer
> > > >
> > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main 
level 
> > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > 
> > > Mat:
> > > 
> > > Main level table?
> > > 
> > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -
- 
> > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you 
are 
> > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
whatever. 
> > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> relationships.
> > > 
> > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
> > > account_type, right?
> > > 
> > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
account_id, 
> > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > 
> > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > 
> > > customer: account_id
> > > account: account_type_id
> > > account_type: type
> > > 
> > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > tedd
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > -------
> > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> http://earthstones.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 






From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 22:17:40 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:17:40 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252894354.14318@coral.he.net>
References: <1252894354.14318@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <2012147576-1252894661-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1621250510-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

But that would also allow multiple logins for the same customer, which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a separate table. 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then normalization 
dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields

login_id
customer_id
login_time
login_IP
session_id

or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each time the 
customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the assigned 
login_id for that session.

Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.

So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer logged 
in.

Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each time, 
and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not be the 
case. 

Kristina



> Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times per 
customer record. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated anew 
> upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  Does 
> each customer have only 1 account?
> 
> Kristina
> 
> > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie 
the 
> accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer 
> information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
account_id 
> > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > account_type_id...
> > 
> > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
account_id 
> > because there is already a relationship in place to find the type 
of 
> > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said in 
> > essence as well.
> > 
> > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
customer 
> > has only one account.
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", 
then 
> > > >>your naming should be:
> > > >>
> > > >>customer_customer
> > > >>customer_account
> > > >>customer_account_type
> > > >
> > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a prefix.  
I 
> > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
relationships 
> I 
> > > >have inside the tables.
> > > >
> > > >account
> > > >account_type
> > > >customer
> > > >
> > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main 
level 
> > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > 
> > > Mat:
> > > 
> > > Main level table?
> > > 
> > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level table -
- 
> > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you 
are 
> > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
whatever. 
> > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> relationships.
> > > 
> > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds the 
> > > account_type, right?
> > > 
> > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
account_id, 
> > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > 
> > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > 
> > > customer: account_id
> > > account: account_type_id
> > > account_type: type
> > > 
> > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > tedd
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > -------
> > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> http://earthstones.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Sep 13 22:22:49 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252894969.16057@coral.he.net>

I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple logins 
for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time they 
log in, they get a new login_id.

> But that would also allow multiple logins for the same customer, 
which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a separate 
table. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then normalization 
> dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> 
> login_id
> customer_id
> login_time
> login_IP
> session_id
> 
> or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each time 
the 
> customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the assigned 
> login_id for that session.
> 
> Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> 
> So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
logged 
> in.
> 
> Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each 
time, 
> and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not be 
the 
> case. 
> 
> Kristina
> 
> 
> 
> > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times 
per 
> customer record. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated anew 
> > upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  Does 
> > each customer have only 1 account?
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie 
> the 
> > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer 
> > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> account_id 
> > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > account_type_id...
> > > 
> > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> account_id 
> > > because there is already a relationship in place to find the type 
> of 
> > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said 
in 
> > > essence as well.
> > > 
> > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> customer 
> > > has only one account.
> > > 
> > > Kristina
> > > 
> > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", 
> then 
> > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > >>customer_account
> > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > >
> > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
prefix.  
> I 
> > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> relationships 
> > I 
> > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > >
> > > > >account
> > > > >account_type
> > > > >customer
> > > > >
> > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main 
> level 
> > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > 
> > > > Mat:
> > > > 
> > > > Main level table?
> > > > 
> > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level 
table -
> - 
> > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you 
> are 
> > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> whatever. 
> > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > relationships.
> > > > 
> > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds 
the 
> > > > account_type, right?
> > > > 
> > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> account_id, 
> > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > 
> > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > 
> > > > customer: account_id
> > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > account_type: type
> > > > 
> > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > 
> > > > tedd
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > -------
> > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > http://earthstones.com
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 






From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 22:27:31 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:27:31 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252894969.16057@coral.he.net>
References: <1252894969.16057@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1001867708-1252895252-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-291135730-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

No. Not true. They can create a Login and map it to multiple customer records. However there can only be one account per customer. 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple logins 
for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time they 
log in, they get a new login_id.

> But that would also allow multiple logins for the same customer, 
which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a separate 
table. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then normalization 
> dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> 
> login_id
> customer_id
> login_time
> login_IP
> session_id
> 
> or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each time 
the 
> customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the assigned 
> login_id for that session.
> 
> Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> 
> So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
logged 
> in.
> 
> Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each 
time, 
> and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not be 
the 
> case. 
> 
> Kristina
> 
> 
> 
> > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times 
per 
> customer record. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated anew 
> > upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  Does 
> > each customer have only 1 account?
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I tie 
> the 
> > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the customer 
> > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> account_id 
> > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > account_type_id...
> > > 
> > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> account_id 
> > > because there is already a relationship in place to find the type 
> of 
> > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just said 
in 
> > > essence as well.
> > > 
> > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> customer 
> > > has only one account.
> > > 
> > > Kristina
> > > 
> > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", 
> then 
> > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > >>customer_account
> > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > >
> > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
prefix.  
> I 
> > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> relationships 
> > I 
> > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > >
> > > > >account
> > > > >account_type
> > > > >customer
> > > > >
> > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main 
> level 
> > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > 
> > > > Mat:
> > > > 
> > > > Main level table?
> > > > 
> > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level 
table -
> - 
> > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if you 
> are 
> > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> whatever. 
> > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > relationships.
> > > > 
> > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds 
the 
> > > > account_type, right?
> > > > 
> > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> account_id, 
> > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > 
> > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull the 
> > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that account 
> > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > 
> > > > customer: account_id
> > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > account_type: type
> > > > 
> > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > 
> > > > tedd
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > -------
> > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > http://earthstones.com
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Sep 13 22:34:18 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:34:18 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252895658.18510@coral.he.net>

Hmm, OK.  So therefore it is not the customer logging in, but some sort 
of account rep overseeing multiple customer accounts...?
If that's true, the the customer_id and login_id have only a peripheral 
relationship, and there would also be an accountmanager_id or some such.

Love this stuff.

Kristina

> No. Not true. They can create a Login and map it to multiple customer 
records. However there can only be one account per customer. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple 
logins 
> for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time they 
> log in, they get a new login_id.
> 
> > But that would also allow multiple logins for the same customer, 
> which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a separate 
> table. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then normalization 
> > dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> > 
> > login_id
> > customer_id
> > login_time
> > login_IP
> > session_id
> > 
> > or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each time 
> the 
> > customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the assigned 
> > login_id for that session.
> > 
> > Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> > login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> > 
> > So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
> logged 
> > in.
> > 
> > Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each 
> time, 
> > and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not be 
> the 
> > case. 
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times 
> per 
> > customer record. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated 
anew 
> > > upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  
Does 
> > > each customer have only 1 account?
> > > 
> > > Kristina
> > > 
> > > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I 
tie 
> > the 
> > > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the 
customer 
> > > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > 
> > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> schemes
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> > account_id 
> > > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > > account_type_id...
> > > > 
> > > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> > account_id 
> > > > because there is already a relationship in place to find the 
type 
> > of 
> > > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just 
said 
> in 
> > > > essence as well.
> > > > 
> > > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> > customer 
> > > > has only one account.
> > > > 
> > > > Kristina
> > > > 
> > > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", 
> > then 
> > > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > > >>customer_account
> > > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
> prefix.  
> > I 
> > > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> > relationships 
> > > I 
> > > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >account
> > > > > >account_type
> > > > > >customer
> > > > > >
> > > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main 
> > level 
> > > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mat:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Main level table?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level 
> table -
> > - 
> > > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if 
you 
> > are 
> > > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> > whatever. 
> > > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > > relationships.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds 
> the 
> > > > > account_type, right?
> > > > > 
> > > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> > account_id, 
> > > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > > 
> > > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull 
the 
> > > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that 
account 
> > > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > > 
> > > > > customer: account_id
> > > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > > account_type: type
> > > > > 
> > > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > 
> > > > > tedd
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > -------
> > > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > > http://earthstones.com
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 






From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 22:37:07 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:37:07 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252895658.18510@coral.he.net>
References: <1252895658.18510@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1005570801-1252895829-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839410541-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

No. It is the customer logging in, but a customer record can't have more than one account. 

I actually renamed the customer table to contact in my example to make it more clear. Yes, data can be repeated, but hardly ever. 

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:34:18 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


Hmm, OK.  So therefore it is not the customer logging in, but some sort 
of account rep overseeing multiple customer accounts...?
If that's true, the the customer_id and login_id have only a peripheral 
relationship, and there would also be an accountmanager_id or some such.

Love this stuff.

Kristina

> No. Not true. They can create a Login and map it to multiple customer 
records. However there can only be one account per customer. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple 
logins 
> for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time they 
> log in, they get a new login_id.
> 
> > But that would also allow multiple logins for the same customer, 
> which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a separate 
> table. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then normalization 
> > dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> > 
> > login_id
> > customer_id
> > login_time
> > login_IP
> > session_id
> > 
> > or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each time 
> the 
> > customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the assigned 
> > login_id for that session.
> > 
> > Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> > login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> > 
> > So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
> logged 
> > in.
> > 
> > Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each 
> time, 
> > and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not be 
> the 
> > case. 
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple times 
> per 
> > customer record. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated 
anew 
> > > upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  
Does 
> > > each customer have only 1 account?
> > > 
> > > Kristina
> > > 
> > > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I 
tie 
> > the 
> > > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the 
customer 
> > > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > 
> > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> schemes
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> > account_id 
> > > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > > account_type_id...
> > > > 
> > > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> > account_id 
> > > > because there is already a relationship in place to find the 
type 
> > of 
> > > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just 
said 
> in 
> > > > essence as well.
> > > > 
> > > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> > customer 
> > > > has only one account.
> > > > 
> > > > Kristina
> > > > 
> > > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with that "mistake", 
> > then 
> > > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > > >>customer_account
> > > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
> prefix.  
> > I 
> > > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> > relationships 
> > > I 
> > > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >account
> > > > > >account_type
> > > > > >customer
> > > > > >
> > > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the main 
> > level 
> > > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mat:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Main level table?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level 
> table -
> > - 
> > > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if 
you 
> > are 
> > > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> > whatever. 
> > > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > > relationships.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table holds 
> the 
> > > > > account_type, right?
> > > > > 
> > > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> > account_id, 
> > > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > > 
> > > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull 
the 
> > > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that 
account 
> > > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull the 
> > > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > > 
> > > > > customer: account_id
> > > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > > account_type: type
> > > > > 
> > > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > 
> > > > > tedd
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > -------
> > > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > > http://earthstones.com
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Sep 13 22:45:54 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:45:54 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252896354.21034@coral.he.net>

If the customer is the one logging in, and the customer can have only 
one account, it's not theoretically possible for a login to be 
associated with more than one customer, then.

So I'm back to my original suggestion for a login table.  Each time the 
customer logs in, generate a row in that table.  That way you can 
preserve the login history and you'd have to have that table, anyway, 
to generate the login_ids.

> No. It is the customer logging in, but a customer record can't have 
more than one account. 
> 
> I actually renamed the customer table to contact in my example to 
make it more clear. Yes, data can be repeated, but hardly ever. 
> 
> Matt 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:34:18 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> Hmm, OK.  So therefore it is not the customer logging in, but some 
sort 
> of account rep overseeing multiple customer accounts...?
> If that's true, the the customer_id and login_id have only a 
peripheral 
> relationship, and there would also be an accountmanager_id or some 
such.
> 
> Love this stuff.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> > No. Not true. They can create a Login and map it to multiple 
customer 
> records. However there can only be one account per customer. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple 
> logins 
> > for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time 
they 
> > log in, they get a new login_id.
> > 
> > > But that would also allow multiple logins for the same customer, 
> > which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a 
separate 
> > table. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then 
normalization 
> > > dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> > > 
> > > login_id
> > > customer_id
> > > login_time
> > > login_IP
> > > session_id
> > > 
> > > or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each 
time 
> > the 
> > > customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the 
assigned 
> > > login_id for that session.
> > > 
> > > Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> > > login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> > > 
> > > So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
> > logged 
> > > in.
> > > 
> > > Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each 
> > time, 
> > > and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not 
be 
> > the 
> > > case. 
> > > 
> > > Kristina
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple 
times 
> > per 
> > > customer record. 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > 
> > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> schemes
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated 
> anew 
> > > > upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  
> Does 
> > > > each customer have only 1 account?
> > > > 
> > > > Kristina
> > > > 
> > > > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I 
> tie 
> > > the 
> > > > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the 
> customer 
> > > > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > > 
> > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> > schemes
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> > > account_id 
> > > > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > > > account_type_id...
> > > > > 
> > > > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> > > account_id 
> > > > > because there is already a relationship in place to find the 
> type 
> > > of 
> > > > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just 
> said 
> > in 
> > > > > essence as well.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> > > customer 
> > > > > has only one account.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kristina
> > > > > 
> > > > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with 
that "mistake", 
> > > then 
> > > > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > > > >>customer_account
> > > > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
> > prefix.  
> > > I 
> > > > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> > > relationships 
> > > > I 
> > > > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >account
> > > > > > >account_type
> > > > > > >customer
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the 
main 
> > > level 
> > > > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Mat:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Main level table?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level 
> > table -
> > > - 
> > > > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if 
> you 
> > > are 
> > > > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> > > whatever. 
> > > > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > > > relationships.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table 
holds 
> > the 
> > > > > > account_type, right?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> > > account_id, 
> > > > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull 
> the 
> > > > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that 
> account 
> > > > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull 
the 
> > > > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > customer: account_id
> > > > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > > > account_type: type
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > tedd
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > -------
> > > > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > > > http://earthstones.com
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 






From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 22:51:59 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:51:59 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252896354.21034@coral.he.net>
References: <1252896354.21034@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <338340006-1252896721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1439236139-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

It is the contact (not customer, I renamed the table) logging in, but perhaps for two different entities. 

Here is an example. There is a guy named tom who has a personal webhosting account and a business account for his business. His email addresses are different. So are his names!  For his personal account, he uses tom Jones. For his work account, he uses Thomas Jones II. So everything is different, but he is the same person and wants to maintain both accounts with the same username. 


-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:45:54 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


If the customer is the one logging in, and the customer can have only 
one account, it's not theoretically possible for a login to be 
associated with more than one customer, then.

So I'm back to my original suggestion for a login table.  Each time the 
customer logs in, generate a row in that table.  That way you can 
preserve the login history and you'd have to have that table, anyway, 
to generate the login_ids.

> No. It is the customer logging in, but a customer record can't have 
more than one account. 
> 
> I actually renamed the customer table to contact in my example to 
make it more clear. Yes, data can be repeated, but hardly ever. 
> 
> Matt 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:34:18 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> Hmm, OK.  So therefore it is not the customer logging in, but some 
sort 
> of account rep overseeing multiple customer accounts...?
> If that's true, the the customer_id and login_id have only a 
peripheral 
> relationship, and there would also be an accountmanager_id or some 
such.
> 
> Love this stuff.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> > No. Not true. They can create a Login and map it to multiple 
customer 
> records. However there can only be one account per customer. 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple 
> logins 
> > for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time 
they 
> > log in, they get a new login_id.
> > 
> > > But that would also allow multiple logins for the same customer, 
> > which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a 
separate 
> > table. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then 
normalization 
> > > dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> > > 
> > > login_id
> > > customer_id
> > > login_time
> > > login_IP
> > > session_id
> > > 
> > > or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each 
time 
> > the 
> > > customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the 
assigned 
> > > login_id for that session.
> > > 
> > > Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> > > login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> > > 
> > > So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
> > logged 
> > > in.
> > > 
> > > Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table each 
> > time, 
> > > and not storing the historical data...but usually that would not 
be 
> > the 
> > > case. 
> > > 
> > > Kristina
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple 
times 
> > per 
> > > customer record. 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > 
> > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> schemes
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it generated 
> anew 
> > > > upon each login and then associated with  a customer profile?  
> Does 
> > > > each customer have only 1 account?
> > > > 
> > > > Kristina
> > > > 
> > > > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where I 
> tie 
> > > the 
> > > > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the 
> customer 
> > > > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > > 
> > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> > schemes
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> > > account_id 
> > > > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > > > account_type_id...
> > > > > 
> > > > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> > > account_id 
> > > > > because there is already a relationship in place to find the 
> type 
> > > of 
> > > > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just 
> said 
> > in 
> > > > > essence as well.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> > > customer 
> > > > > has only one account.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kristina
> > > > > 
> > > > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with 
that "mistake", 
> > > then 
> > > > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > > > >>customer_account
> > > > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
> > prefix.  
> > > I 
> > > > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> > > relationships 
> > > > I 
> > > > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >account
> > > > > > >account_type
> > > > > > >customer
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores an 
> > > > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the 
main 
> > > level 
> > > > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Mat:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Main level table?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main level 
> > table -
> > > - 
> > > > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference if 
> you 
> > > are 
> > > > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> > > whatever. 
> > > > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > > > relationships.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table 
holds 
> > the 
> > > > > > account_type, right?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> > > account_id, 
> > > > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you pull 
> the 
> > > > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that 
> account 
> > > > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull 
the 
> > > > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's id 
> > > > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > customer: account_id
> > > > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > > > account_type: type
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > tedd
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > -------
> > > > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > > > http://earthstones.com
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 




_______________________________________________
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Sep 13 22:57:45 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:57:45 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>

You stated previously that each customer/contact cannot have more than 
1 account.  But, it appears from the below that you need a "contact 
name" and then multiple "account names" under it(i.e. business name, 
personal account name) associated with the one contact/customer ID -- 
since they do in some cases have more than 1 account.  


So the contact logs on, that goes in the login table with the 
contact_id creating a new row, and then the contact_id jas a 
relationship with all existing accounts for that contact.  But you'd 
still need to historically track the logons for each contact.

Kristina

> It is the contact (not customer, I renamed the table) logging in, but 
perhaps for two different entities. 
> 
> Here is an example. There is a guy named tom who has a personal 
webhosting account and a business account for his business. His email 
addresses are different. So are his names!  For his personal account, 
he uses tom Jones. For his work account, he uses Thomas Jones II. So 
everything is different, but he is the same person and wants to 
maintain both accounts with the same username. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:45:54 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> If the customer is the one logging in, and the customer can have only 
> one account, it's not theoretically possible for a login to be 
> associated with more than one customer, then.
> 
> So I'm back to my original suggestion for a login table.  Each time 
the 
> customer logs in, generate a row in that table.  That way you can 
> preserve the login history and you'd have to have that table, anyway, 
> to generate the login_ids.
> 
> > No. It is the customer logging in, but a customer record can't have 
> more than one account. 
> > 
> > I actually renamed the customer table to contact in my example to 
> make it more clear. Yes, data can be repeated, but hardly ever. 
> > 
> > Matt 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:34:18 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > Hmm, OK.  So therefore it is not the customer logging in, but some 
> sort 
> > of account rep overseeing multiple customer accounts...?
> > If that's true, the the customer_id and login_id have only a 
> peripheral 
> > relationship, and there would also be an accountmanager_id or some 
> such.
> > 
> > Love this stuff.
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > > No. Not true. They can create a Login and map it to multiple 
> customer 
> > records. However there can only be one account per customer. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple 
> > logins 
> > > for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time 
> they 
> > > log in, they get a new login_id.
> > > 
> > > > But that would also allow multiple logins for the same 
customer, 
> > > which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a 
> separate 
> > > table. 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > 
> > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> schemes
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then 
> normalization 
> > > > dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> > > > 
> > > > login_id
> > > > customer_id
> > > > login_time
> > > > login_IP
> > > > session_id
> > > > 
> > > > or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each 
> time 
> > > the 
> > > > customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the 
> assigned 
> > > > login_id for that session.
> > > > 
> > > > Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> > > > login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> > > > 
> > > > So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
> > > logged 
> > > > in.
> > > > 
> > > > Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table 
each 
> > > time, 
> > > > and not storing the historical data...but usually that would 
not 
> be 
> > > the 
> > > > case. 
> > > > 
> > > > Kristina
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple 
> times 
> > > per 
> > > > customer record. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > > 
> > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> > schemes
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it 
generated 
> > anew 
> > > > > upon each login and then associated with  a customer 
profile?  
> > Does 
> > > > > each customer have only 1 account?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kristina
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where 
I 
> > tie 
> > > > the 
> > > > > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the 
> > customer 
> > > > > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" 
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column 
naming 
> > > schemes
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > > > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> > > > account_id 
> > > > > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > > > > account_type_id...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> > > > account_id 
> > > > > > because there is already a relationship in place to find 
the 
> > type 
> > > > of 
> > > > > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just 
> > said 
> > > in 
> > > > > > essence as well.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> > > > customer 
> > > > > > has only one account.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Kristina
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with 
> that "mistake", 
> > > > then 
> > > > > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > > > > >>customer_account
> > > > > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
> > > prefix.  
> > > > I 
> > > > > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> > > > relationships 
> > > > > I 
> > > > > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >account
> > > > > > > >account_type
> > > > > > > >customer
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores 
an 
> > > > > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the 
> main 
> > > > level 
> > > > > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Mat:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Main level table?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main 
level 
> > > table -
> > > > - 
> > > > > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference 
if 
> > you 
> > > > are 
> > > > > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> > > > whatever. 
> > > > > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > > > > relationships.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table 
> holds 
> > > the 
> > > > > > > account_type, right?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> > > > account_id, 
> > > > > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you 
pull 
> > the 
> > > > > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that 
> > account 
> > > > > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull 
> the 
> > > > > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's 
id 
> > > > > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > customer: account_id
> > > > > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > > > > account_type: type
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > tedd
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > > > > http://earthstones.com
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 







From matt at atopia.net  Sun Sep 13 22:59:49 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:59:49 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>
References: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

We are on two separate pages. There is no tracking of login ID's. And nothing is automatically created. Login ID is a username. 

t1.login_id = t2.I'd


-----Original Message-----
From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:57:45 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes


You stated previously that each customer/contact cannot have more than 
1 account.  But, it appears from the below that you need a "contact 
name" and then multiple "account names" under it(i.e. business name, 
personal account name) associated with the one contact/customer ID -- 
since they do in some cases have more than 1 account.  


So the contact logs on, that goes in the login table with the 
contact_id creating a new row, and then the contact_id jas a 
relationship with all existing accounts for that contact.  But you'd 
still need to historically track the logons for each contact.

Kristina

> It is the contact (not customer, I renamed the table) logging in, but 
perhaps for two different entities. 
> 
> Here is an example. There is a guy named tom who has a personal 
webhosting account and a business account for his business. His email 
addresses are different. So are his names!  For his personal account, 
he uses tom Jones. For his work account, he uses Thomas Jones II. So 
everything is different, but he is the same person and wants to 
maintain both accounts with the same username. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> 
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:45:54 
> To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> 
> 
> If the customer is the one logging in, and the customer can have only 
> one account, it's not theoretically possible for a login to be 
> associated with more than one customer, then.
> 
> So I'm back to my original suggestion for a login table.  Each time 
the 
> customer logs in, generate a row in that table.  That way you can 
> preserve the login history and you'd have to have that table, anyway, 
> to generate the login_ids.
> 
> > No. It is the customer logging in, but a customer record can't have 
> more than one account. 
> > 
> > I actually renamed the customer table to contact in my example to 
> make it more clear. Yes, data can be repeated, but hardly ever. 
> > 
> > Matt 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:34:18 
> > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
> > 
> > 
> > Hmm, OK.  So therefore it is not the customer logging in, but some 
> sort 
> > of account rep overseeing multiple customer accounts...?
> > If that's true, the the customer_id and login_id have only a 
> peripheral 
> > relationship, and there would also be an accountmanager_id or some 
> such.
> > 
> > Love this stuff.
> > 
> > Kristina
> > 
> > > No. Not true. They can create a Login and map it to multiple 
> customer 
> > records. However there can only be one account per customer. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:22:49 
> > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
schemes
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm not clear on this...  You just told me that you had multiple 
> > logins 
> > > for each customer in the customer table.  Right?  I.e. each time 
> they 
> > > log in, they get a new login_id.
> > > 
> > > > But that would also allow multiple logins for the same 
customer, 
> > > which I don't. Its a one to many only. So it doesn't need a 
> separate 
> > > table. 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > 
> > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:12:34 
> > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> schemes
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > If each customer can have more than 1 login ID, then 
> normalization 
> > > > dictates a separate table, let's call it login , with fields
> > > > 
> > > > login_id
> > > > customer_id
> > > > login_time
> > > > login_IP
> > > > session_id
> > > > 
> > > > or whatever you store related to Logins, i.e. one row for each 
> time 
> > > the 
> > > > customer logs in, with their permanent customer_id and the 
> assigned 
> > > > login_id for that session.
> > > > 
> > > > Each time they login, the table generates a new row, with a new 
> > > > login_id, and associates it with their customer_id.
> > > > 
> > > > So you can then do a query and find ALL the times each customer 
> > > logged 
> > > > in.
> > > > 
> > > > Unless you're overwriting the login_id in the customer table 
each 
> > > time, 
> > > > and not storing the historical data...but usually that would 
not 
> be 
> > > the 
> > > > case. 
> > > > 
> > > > Kristina
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > Login ID is a field inside customer and can be set multiple 
> times 
> > > per 
> > > > customer record. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > > 
> > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:46:25 
> > > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming 
> > schemes
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > OK.  Is login_id equivalent to customer_id, or is it 
generated 
> > anew 
> > > > > upon each login and then associated with  a customer 
profile?  
> > Does 
> > > > > each customer have only 1 account?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kristina
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Right.  I want to do it that way on purpose. Because where 
I 
> > tie 
> > > > the 
> > > > > accounts together is by login id. But most of the time the 
> > customer 
> > > > > information changes per account even if its the same person. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: "Kristina D. H. Anderson" 
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:40:45 
> > > > > > To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column 
naming 
> > > schemes
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You could have a table account_type which has primary key 
> > > > > > account_type_id, and a table account which has primary key 
> > > > account_id 
> > > > > > and then a lookup field in account which holds the relevant 
> > > > > > account_type_id...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > That way in table customer you just need a lookup field on 
> > > > account_id 
> > > > > > because there is already a relationship in place to find 
the 
> > type 
> > > > of 
> > > > > > account based on that value...I think that's what Tedd just 
> > said 
> > > in 
> > > > > > essence as well.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Although this structure is certainly presupposing that each 
> > > > customer 
> > > > > > has only one account.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Kristina
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > At 11:56 AM -0400 9/13/09, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > > > > > > >>Plus, if you're going to be consistent with 
> that "mistake", 
> > > > then 
> > > > > > > >>your naming should be:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>customer_customer
> > > > > > > >>customer_account
> > > > > > > >>customer_account_type
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I disagree.  I wasn't trying to create "customer" as a 
> > > prefix.  
> > > > I 
> > > > > > > >was simply renaming the tables based on the one:many 
> > > > relationships 
> > > > > I 
> > > > > > > >have inside the tables.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >account
> > > > > > > >account_type
> > > > > > > >customer
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >since customer stores an account_id, and account stores 
an 
> > > > > > > >account_type id, I could have picked customer to be the 
> main 
> > > > level 
> > > > > > > >table, and just references out from there:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Mat:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Main level table?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I think that's one of the problems. There is no main 
level 
> > > table -
> > > > - 
> > > > > > > there are just tables. It should not make any difference 
if 
> > you 
> > > > are 
> > > > > > > addressing customers, accounts, account_types, emails, or 
> > > > whatever. 
> > > > > > > They are nothing more than data and each has there own 
> > > > > relationships.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Also, I think I see another problem. The account table 
> holds 
> > > the 
> > > > > > > account_type, right?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > If so, then your customer table should only contain the 
> > > > account_id, 
> > > > > > > but NOT the account_type_id -- that's redundant.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > To access what account-type the customer has means you 
pull 
> > the 
> > > > > > > account_id from the customer table -- then look up that 
> > account 
> > > > > > > (using the account_id ) in the account table -- then pull 
> the 
> > > > > > > account_type_id and then find the account-type via it's 
id 
> > > > > > > (account_type_id) from the account type table. Understand.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > customer: account_id
> > > > > > > account: account_type_id
> > > > > > > account_type: type
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In any event, that's the way I would do it.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > tedd
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  
> > > > > http://earthstones.com
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 





_______________________________________________
New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php

From lists at zaunere.com  Mon Sep 14 08:50:53 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 08:50:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <20090913031247.GA9777@panix.com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090913031247.GA9777@panix.com>
Message-ID: <007301ca3539$feaa92c0$fbffb840$@com>

> Here's my input on this same topic from a couple weeks ago on this
> list:
> http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/028910.html

Wow, seems like we've got a new PHundamentals article already in the works
:)

H




From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Mon Sep 14 10:11:42 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:11:42 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>
	<1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4AAE4F1E.8060400@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Hi Folks,

This is an interesting thread, but hard to follow with all the 
top-posting.  AFAIK it's not strictly prohibited on this list, but it 
does make it hard for others to follow the conversation.

Thanks,
Allen


-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From matt at atopia.net  Mon Sep 14 10:36:29 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:36:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <4AAE4F1E.8060400@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>
	<1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4AAE4F1E.8060400@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909141035510.85523@pluto.atopia.net>

> This is an interesting thread, but hard to follow with all the top-posting. 
> AFAIK it's not strictly prohibited on this list, but it does make it hard for 
> others to follow the conversation.

Yeah, my apologies.  I usually dont top post, except all my replies 
yesterday were from my Blackberry.  I forgot that the blackberry does top 
posting only.  My apologies.


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Sep 14 10:43:29 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:43:29 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252939409.1153@coral.he.net>



> > This is an interesting thread, but hard to follow with all the top-
posting. 
> > AFAIK it's not strictly prohibited on this list, but it does make 
it hard for 
> > others to follow the conversation.
> 
> Yeah, my apologies.  I usually dont top post, except all my replies 
> yesterday were from my Blackberry.  I forgot that the blackberry does 
top 
> posting only.  My apologies.
> 

Someone needs to send me a whitepaper on acceptable vs. inacceptable 
posting.  Is this the way you want me to do it, underneath everything 
else?

Kristina


From matt at atopia.net  Mon Sep 14 10:44:58 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:44:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1252939409.1153@coral.he.net>
References: <1252939409.1153@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909141044110.85911@pluto.atopia.net>

> Someone needs to send me a whitepaper on acceptable vs. inacceptable
> posting.  Is this the way you want me to do it, underneath everything
> else?

This is usually the accepted way, yeah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top.2C_bottom.2C_and_inline_replies


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Sep 14 10:47:17 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina D. H. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:47:17 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1252939637.2168@coral.he.net>



> > Someone needs to send me a whitepaper on acceptable vs. inacceptable
> > posting.  Is this the way you want me to do it, underneath 
everything
> > else?
> 
> This is usually the accepted way, yeah.
> 
> 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top.2C_bottom.2C_and_inline_r
eplies
> 

Great.  I'm now "drinking the Kool Aid".  

Kristina


From lists at nopersonal.info  Tue Sep 15 15:13:25 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 15:13:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <007301ca3539$feaa92c0$fbffb840$@com>
References: <1605047040-1252801027-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-392634674-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<20090913031247.GA9777@panix.com>
	<007301ca3539$feaa92c0$fbffb840$@com>
Message-ID: <4AAFE755.5070408@nopersonal.info>

Hans Zaunere wrote:
>> Here's my input on this same topic from a couple weeks ago on this
>> list:
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/028910.html
> 
> Wow, seems like we've got a new PHundamentals article already in the works
> :)

No kidding! I'm just now catching up with the lists after spending the
better part of last weekend wrestling with a bunch of tables in exactly
this type of situation, so it's really fresh in my mind.

Both Kristina's & Daniel's advice on field names in the previous thread
made perfect sense once I got my tables properly normalized and needed
to join data from columns in each of them in order to display a "master"
(HTML) table of items.

Bev


From anoland at indigente.net  Wed Sep 16 15:34:05 2009
From: anoland at indigente.net (Adrian Noland)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:34:05 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <4A912A3D.2030005@reuel.net>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info> <4A912A3D.2030005@reuel.net>
Message-ID: <1d8a0e930909161234p5c612cdah953f06f9f410af3c@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/top-projects/php.html
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-php-read/

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:

>
> Anyone up for drafting a "Recommended Learning Program" for PHP?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Leam
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From leam at reuel.net  Fri Sep 18 05:16:27 2009
From: leam at reuel.net (Leam Hall)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 05:16:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <1d8a0e930909161234p5c612cdah953f06f9f410af3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info> <4A912A3D.2030005@reuel.net>
	<1d8a0e930909161234p5c612cdah953f06f9f410af3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB34FEB.3000408@reuel.net>

Awesome!

Adrian Noland wrote:
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/top-projects/php.html
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-php-read/
> 
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
> 
>> Anyone up for drafting a "Recommended Learning Program" for PHP?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Leam


From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:23:16 2009
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:23:16 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Enabling PHP Extensions
Message-ID: <a9caffe50909181223i6b8bff6cne5817f2cee3e6305@mail.gmail.com>

I have asked tech support at the hosting company to enable the php_zip
extension for me. The person I am dealing with has told me that PHP
has to be recompiled for this, because of what this page says:

http://us2.php.net/manual/en/zip.installation.php

Now I am by no means a server expert, but I enabled this same
extension yesterday on our development box by simply un-commenting it
in the php.ini file, stopping and restarting the server.

Am I missing something here?

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Sep 18 15:35:56 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Enabling PHP Extensions
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909181223i6b8bff6cne5817f2cee3e6305@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909181533530.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, Randal Rust wrote:

> I have asked tech support at the hosting company to enable the php_zip
> extension for me. The person I am dealing with has told me that PHP
> has to be recompiled for this, because of what this page says:
> 
> http://us2.php.net/manual/en/zip.installation.php
> 
> Now I am by no means a server expert, but I enabled this same
> extension yesterday on our development box by simply un-commenting it
> in the php.ini file, stopping and restarting the server.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Means the PHP on your dev box has all extensions already compiled and 
installed so you can selectively add/remove them by simply editing your 
php.ini.


-- 
Aj.



From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:46:09 2009
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:46:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Enabling PHP Extensions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909181533530.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <a9caffe50909181223i6b8bff6cne5817f2cee3e6305@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909181533530.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50909181246n7359f628qb67cf0780a6476c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:

> Means the PHP on your dev box has all extensions already compiled and
> installed so you can selectively add/remove them by simply editing your
> php.ini.

OK, that makes sense. However, I have had tech support enable
extensions on this same server in the past and there has been no
mention of needing to recompile.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Fri Sep 18 19:46:03 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:46:03 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Enabling PHP Extensions
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909181246n7359f628qb67cf0780a6476c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909181223i6b8bff6cne5817f2cee3e6305@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909181533530.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
	<a9caffe50909181246n7359f628qb67cf0780a6476c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB41BBB.6070006@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Randal Rust wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
>> Means the PHP on your dev box has all extensions already compiled and
>> installed so you can selectively add/remove them by simply editing your
>> php.ini.
>>     
> OK, that makes sense. However, I have had tech support enable
> extensions on this same server in the past and there has been no
> mention of needing to recompile.
Would phpinfo() show what extensions that PHP binary was compiled with?

-A.

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 20:13:41 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:13:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Enabling PHP Extensions
In-Reply-To: <4AB41BBB.6070006@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <a9caffe50909181223i6b8bff6cne5817f2cee3e6305@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909181533530.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
	<a9caffe50909181246n7359f628qb67cf0780a6476c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB41BBB.6070006@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <68de37340909181713t653f61aax79f3aa45267c6e2d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Allen Shaw
<allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
> Randal Rust wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Means the PHP on your dev box has all extensions already compiled and
>>> installed so you can selectively add/remove them by simply editing your
>>> php.ini.
>>>
>>
>> OK, that makes sense. However, I have had tech support enable
>> extensions on this same server in the past and there has been no
>> mention of needing to recompile.
>
> Would phpinfo() show what extensions that PHP binary was compiled with?
>
> -A.
>
> --
> Allen Shaw
> TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com
>
> "Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"
>

The configure command  (one of the first things phpinfo shows you :P)
should give you all that information.


From tim_lists at o2group.com  Fri Sep 18 21:06:45 2009
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:06:45 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Enabling PHP Extensions
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50909181246n7359f628qb67cf0780a6476c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9caffe50909181223i6b8bff6cne5817f2cee3e6305@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909181533530.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
	<a9caffe50909181246n7359f628qb67cf0780a6476c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F7325D7-AE02-4CF1-9CFD-6D3640273CCC@o2group.com>


On Sep 18, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Randal Rust wrote:

>>
>> Means the PHP on your dev box has all extensions already compiled and
>> installed so you can selectively add/remove them by simply editing  
>> your
>> php.ini.
>
> OK, that makes sense. However, I have had tech support enable
> extensions on this same server in the past and there has been no
> mention of needing to recompile.


If your still running php4, it seems like it does in fact need to be  
compiled in to php.

However, assuming your host is running php >=5.2.0 they can install it  
as a shared library via pecl:

# pecl install zip

Just did this, and manually added extension=zip.so to my php.ini on my  
macbook pro.

I'm running my own custom-compiled PHP (I like to build my AMP stacks  
from source) on this machine, but that shouldn't make a difference.

-Tim



From mutazmusa at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 21:57:57 2009
From: mutazmusa at gmail.com (Mutaz Musa)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:57:57 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <4AB34FEB.3000408@reuel.net>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info> <4A912A3D.2030005@reuel.net>
	<1d8a0e930909161234p5c612cdah953f06f9f410af3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB34FEB.3000408@reuel.net>
Message-ID: <602c8ac0909181857l4585c805nc426f8b3b7cc9aed@mail.gmail.com>

> * glue frameworks - like Zend and Joomla 1.5
>

Remember Joomla is a CMS not a framework. I've personally only ever used
CodeIgniter and Cake. Both were fine though Cake was a bit stifling with the
naming conventions. Documentation was good though and that made things
easier. I'm going to try Zend for my next project because I like the idea of
being able to use their classes on a needs-only basis. It seems more
flexible and more enterprise ready. At least that's the vibe I get.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:

> Awesome!
>
>
> Adrian Noland wrote:
>
>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/top-projects/php.html
>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-php-read/
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
>>
>>  Anyone up for drafting a "Recommended Learning Program" for PHP?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Leam
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
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From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 23:45:44 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:45:44 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
Message-ID: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>

I've been using simplexml to parse XML and so far the XML I've had to  
deal with has been pretty straight forward. Then I run across this XML  
which I don't know what to call it or how it should be handled properly.

Here is a fragment of what I'm talking about:

<?xml version="1.0" ?>
<document type="db download">

<packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
<package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
</packages>

I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </>,  
and the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing  
something?

Thanks!

David



From consult at covenantedesign.com  Sat Sep 19 01:33:13 2009
From: consult at covenantedesign.com (CED)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:33:13 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
References: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB46D19.3020705@covenantedesign.com>

David Roth wrote:
> I've been using simplexml to parse XML and so far the XML I've had to 
> deal with has been pretty straight forward. Then I run across this XML 
> which I don't know what to call it or how it should be handled properly.
>
> Here is a fragment of what I'm talking about:
>
> <?xml version="1.0" ?>
> <document type="db download">
>
> <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
> <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
> </packages>
>
> I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </>, 
> and the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing 
> something?
>
> Thanks!
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>
That's valid. it's just using short hand attributes instead of nested nodes.

-- 
<img src="http://covenantedesign.com/logo.jpg" border ="0">
995 Maple Hill Road
Castleton, New York 12033
518-331-5061
Consult at CovenanteDesign.com




From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 01:47:40 2009
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:47:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
References: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29da5d150909182247r7220f11cg126b0d06041c6153@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not an xml expert but I believe that's valid. Things within the
brackets (and not in their own node I believe are considered
attributes.

On 9/18/09, David Roth <davidalanroth at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been using simplexml to parse XML and so far the XML I've had to
> deal with has been pretty straight forward. Then I run across this XML
> which I don't know what to call it or how it should be handled properly.
>
> Here is a fragment of what I'm talking about:
>
> <?xml version="1.0" ?>
> <document type="db download">
>
> <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
> <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
> </packages>
>
> I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </>,
> and the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing
> something?
>
> Thanks!
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Brian O'Connor


From ramons at gmx.net  Sat Sep 19 06:34:07 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 06:34:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
References: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB4B39F.3020406@gmx.net>

David Roth wrote:
> I've been using simplexml to parse XML and so far the XML I've had to 
> deal with has been pretty straight forward. Then I run across this XML 
> which I don't know what to call it or how it should be handled properly.
> 
> Here is a fragment of what I'm talking about:
> 
> <?xml version="1.0" ?>
> <document type="db download">
> 
> <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
> <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
> </packages>
> 
> I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </>, and 
> the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> David

I am not an XML expert, but yes, I would too expect opening and closing tags 
for everything, be it as <some_tag..../> or as <some_tag><some_tag/>. I don't 
see anything wrong with the quotes and think they have to be there.


David


From david at davidmintz.org  Sat Sep 19 12:25:31 2009
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:25:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
Message-ID: <721f1cc50909190925m1205e214pd332a9937d6a7b78@mail.gmail.com>

I have been using Dreamhost because it's cheap and provides what I need and
has a really weird and funny newsletter.

However, if you need a custom php.ini, the instructions are found at
http://www.wiki.dreamhost.com/index.php/PHP.ini with a great big disclamer
to the effect that if it suddenly breaks, you're on your own. Sure enough,
my little php app suddenly broke. Tore my hair out for a while, then finally
worked around.

Is the ability to customize your php.ini asking too much of a low-end
shared-hosting provider?

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From lists at nopersonal.info  Sat Sep 19 12:42:29 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:42:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
References: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB509F5.70408@nopersonal.info>

David Roth wrote:

> <?xml version="1.0" ?>
> <document type="db download">
> 
> <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
> <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
> </packages>
> 
> I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </>, and
> the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing something?

XML attributes must be quoted, but you can use either double or single
quotes. If there's nothing between the opening & closing tags you can
use the shorthand tag, just as you would with <img src="foo.gif" /> or
<br />.

http://www.tizag.com/xmlTutorial/xmltag.php
http://www.tizag.com/xmlTutorial/xmlattributes.php

Bev



From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 19 12:43:58 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:43:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>
	<1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909191238230.28544@pluto.atopia.net>

Kristina,

While we're on this subject, I thought I would ask another pending 
question I have related to this.

I need to store a bunch (and by a bunch, I mean about 30-40) binary 
true/false values in my database.

In the past, I would do something like this:

CREATE TABLE........... (
 				is_active tinyint(1) default 1,
 				is_friend tinyint(1) default 1,
 				is_something tinyint(1) default 1,
 				is_something_else tinyint(1) default 1,
 				......
 			);

But that table would really get large if I had 30-40 extra columns in it. 
The other option was that I was considering a bit string:


CREATE TABLE......... (
 				permissions mediumint(11) default 0
);

INSERT INTO permissions (permissions) values (7);

Since there are 3 bits that make up the integer "8" (or 0 - 7):

1,2,4

This would mean that I could store 3 combinations of permissions, but it 
would be an integer.

This could get even more complex if I had 30-40, as I could do a really 
large hex string, or just store the actual bit string:


aef214  <--- one value
11000110111011 <-- or something like that


Thoughts?

-Matt


From alexchan.1976 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 14:01:37 2009
From: alexchan.1976 at gmail.com (Alex C)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 14:01:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <4AB509F5.70408@nopersonal.info>
References: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
	<4AB509F5.70408@nopersonal.info>
Message-ID: <8f494f760909191101j7514cd24j2707bebb75b066bc@mail.gmail.com>

HI,
Have you tried closing <document> tag ?
it seems not to be closed.

Alex

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:42 PM, lists at nopersonal.info
<lists at nopersonal.info> wrote:
> David Roth wrote:
>
>> <?xml version="1.0" ?>
>> <document type="db download">
>>
>> <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
>> <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
>> </packages>
>>
>> I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </>, and
>> the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing something?
>
> XML attributes must be quoted, but you can use either double or single
> quotes. If there's nothing between the opening & closing tags you can
> use the shorthand tag, just as you would with <img src="foo.gif" /> or
> <br />.
>
> http://www.tizag.com/xmlTutorial/xmltag.php
> http://www.tizag.com/xmlTutorial/xmlattributes.php
>
> Bev
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From michael.southwell at nyphp.com  Sat Sep 19 14:09:34 2009
From: michael.southwell at nyphp.com (Michael Southwell)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 14:09:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50909190925m1205e214pd332a9937d6a7b78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50909190925m1205e214pd332a9937d6a7b78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB51E5E.3080508@nyphp.com>

David Mintz wrote:
> I have been using Dreamhost because it's cheap and provides what I need 
> and has a really weird and funny newsletter.

with the emphasis on weird ;-)

> 
> However, if you need a custom php.ini, the instructions are found at 
> http://www.wiki.dreamhost.com/index.php/PHP.ini with a great big 
> disclamer to the effect that if it suddenly breaks, you're on your own. 
> Sure enough, my little php app suddenly broke. Tore my hair out for a 
> while, then finally worked around.

I have had the exact same experience. When you say "worked around," do 
you mean that you couldn't solve the problem? What happened to me was 
that they changed something which meant that the default path to mail 
was no longer good, so I couldn't send mail; but when I finally figured 
that out, I fixed it by setting the path and the issue was over.

> 
> Is the ability to customize your php.ini asking too much of a low-end 
> shared-hosting provider?

uhh, but in fact they did provide that for you (and me), no? They just 
don't provide any support for it.

-- 
=================
Michael Southwell
Vice President, Education
NYPHP TRAINING:  http://nyphp.com/Training/Indepth


From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 14:53:52 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 14:53:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
Message-ID: <59E89A80-51EA-4150-9B62-C06A708BB57F@gmail.com>

> David Roth wrote:
>
> > <?xml version="1.0" ?>
> > <document type="db download">
> >
> > <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
> > <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
> > </packages>
> >
> > I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </ 
> >, and
> > the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing  
> something?
>
> XML attributes must be quoted, but you can use either double or single
> quotes. If there's nothing between the opening & closing tags you can
> use the shorthand tag, just as you would with <img src="foo.gif" /> or
> <br />.
>
> http://www.tizag.com/xmlTutorial/xmltag.php
> http://www.tizag.com/xmlTutorial/xmlattributes.php
>
> Bev

So if the above is valid XML, is there a specific name for this  
approach? Is there a benefit for doing it this way instead of nested  
nodes? Might this be considered older method?
Thanks,
David
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From mattwilliamsnyc at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 15:05:39 2009
From: mattwilliamsnyc at gmail.com (Matt Williams)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 15:05:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <59E89A80-51EA-4150-9B62-C06A708BB57F@gmail.com>
References: <59E89A80-51EA-4150-9B62-C06A708BB57F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9a0c4fc50909191205r721b417ew88a847a0b2782bff@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 23:45, David Roth <davidalanroth at gmail.com> wrote:

I've been using simplexml to parse XML and so far the XML I've had to deal
> with has been pretty straight forward. Then I run across this XML which I
> don't know what to call it or how it should be handled properly.


There are different ways to access elements and attributes of XML documents
with SimpleXML (XPath, etc), but generally speaking, attributes can be
accessed as associative array values.

Here's an example:

<?php

$xml = <<<XML
<?xml version="1.0" ?>
<document type="db download">
  <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
    <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
  </packages>
</document>
XML;

$sxml = new SimpleXMLElement($xml);

// Access the first package
$package = $sxml->packages->package[0];
echo sprintf(
    "Package Dimensions: %sx%sx%s Weight: %s\n",
    $package['length'],
    $package['width'],
    $package['height'],
    $package['weight']
);

// Find all packages
foreach($sxml->packages->package as $package) {
    echo sprintf(
        "Package Dimensions: %sx%sx%s Weight: %s\n",
        $package['length'],
        $package['width'],
        $package['height'],
        $package['weight']
    );
}

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 14:53, David Roth <davidalanroth at gmail.com> wrote:

So if the above is valid XML, is there a specific name for this
approach? Is there a benefit for doing it this way instead of nested
nodes? Might this be considered older method?
>
>
No, it's not an older method. There is no absolute definition of when to use
elements versus attributes. There are, however, some attempts at defining
general principles:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-eleatt.html

Also,
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Sep 19 15:51:58 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:51:58 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1253389918.29423@coral.he.net>

> Kristina,
> 
> While we're on this subject, I thought I would ask another pending 
> question I have related to this.
> 
> I need to store a bunch (and by a bunch, I mean about 30-40) binary 
> true/false values in my database.
> 
> In the past, I would do something like this:
> 
> CREATE TABLE........... (
>  				is_active tinyint(1) default 1,
>  				is_friend tinyint(1) default 1,
>  				is_something tinyint(1) default 1,
>  				is_something_else tinyint(1) default 1,
>  				......
>  			);
> 
> But that table would really get large if I had 30-40 extra columns in 
it. 
> The other option was that I was considering a bit string:
> 
> 
> CREATE TABLE......... (
>  				permissions mediumint(11) default 0
> );
> 
> INSERT INTO permissions (permissions) values (7);
> 
> Since there are 3 bits that make up the integer "8" (or 0 - 7):
> 
> 1,2,4
> 
> This would mean that I could store 3 combinations of permissions, but 
it 
> would be an integer.
> 
> This could get even more complex if I had 30-40, as I could do a 
really 
> large hex string, or just store the actual bit string:
> 
> 
> aef214  <--- one value
> 11000110111011 <-- or something like that
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> 
> 

>>I need to store a bunch (and by a bunch, I mean about 30-40) binary 
>>true/false values in my database.

>>In the past, I would do something like this:

>>CREATE TABLE........... (
>>                   is_active tinyint(1) default 1,
>>                   is_friend tinyint(1) default 1,
>>                   is_something tinyint(1) default 1,
>>                   is_something_else tinyint(1) default 1,
>>                   ......
>>              );

>>But that table would really get large if I had 30-40 extra columns in 
it. 

Hi Matt, 
Thanks for your question.  AFAIK, the above is still the way it's done 
most of the time.  From what you write below, it seems that you are 
trying to optimize the potential size of the database by being very 
parsimonious about the size and quantity of the fields.

>>The other option was that I was considering a bit string:


>>CREATE TABLE......... (
>>                   permissions mediumint(11) default 0
>>);

>>INSERT INTO permissions (permissions) values (7);

>>Since there are 3 bits that make up the integer "8" (or 0 - 7):

>>1,2,4

>>This would mean that I could store 3 combinations of permissions, but 
it 
would be an integer.

>>This could get even more complex if I had 30-40, as I could do a 
really 
large hex string, or just store the actual bit string:

>>aef214  <--- one value
>>11000110111011 <-- or something like that

Here you are facing an issue between readability/ease of retrieval and 
space needed to store.  I think that the idea of using a string of 0's 
and 1's in one field is interesting & useful, and is readable enough so 
that if something is awry you'd be able to find it fast.  Some string-
handling functions to pull out individual values & update the field as 
needed, and you're rolling.

I'd suspect that in a very large database, by using one field of an 
appropriate size to store a string of 40 booleans, rather than 40 
tinyint fields, you could save some really appreciable room.   

Kristina





From ramons at gmx.net  Sat Sep 19 18:35:14 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 18:35:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <9a0c4fc50909191205r721b417ew88a847a0b2782bff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <59E89A80-51EA-4150-9B62-C06A708BB57F@gmail.com>
	<9a0c4fc50909191205r721b417ew88a847a0b2782bff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB55CA2.7060105@gmx.net>

Matt Williams wrote:
>     So if the above is valid XML, is there a specific name for this approach? Is there a benefit for doing it this way instead of nested nodes? Might this be considered older method?
> 
> 
> No, it's not an older method. There is no absolute definition of when to 
> use elements versus attributes. There are, however, some attempts at 
> defining general principles:
> 
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-eleatt.html


The thing is that attributes have less overhead. So if you have many different 
elements that have a few properties using attributes shaves off a few 
characters. Then again, XML has a gigantic amount of overhead anyway, so why 
bother. One could also say that anything mandatory is to be an attribute while 
everything else is a sub-element. Haven't looked at the IBM page yet, so maybe 
my ideas are not on the money. In general, XML is made for machines to read, 
it is not fit for human consumption.

David


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Sat Sep 19 20:48:49 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:48:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
In-Reply-To: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
References: <A5297893-59EB-4FCF-8BAC-8077EFA51EC8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090920004849.GA1081@panix.com>

Hi David:

> <?xml version="1.0" ?>
> <document type="db download">
>
> <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
> <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
> </packages>

That's not well-formed (valid) because there should be a closing 
</document> tag at the end.


> I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </>, and 
> the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing something?

As others have mentioned, XML has "elements" (the stuff using <> and </>) 
and "attributes" (the stuff inside the opening or empty element that use 
the name="value" format).

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From matt at atopia.net  Sat Sep 19 21:46:13 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 21:46:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1253389918.29423@coral.he.net>
References: <1253389918.29423@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909192145330.51121@pluto.atopia.net>

> Here you are facing an issue between readability/ease of retrieval and
> space needed to store.  I think that the idea of using a string of 0's
> and 1's in one field is interesting & useful, and is readable enough so
> that if something is awry you'd be able to find it fast.  Some string-
> handling functions to pull out individual values & update the field as
> needed, and you're rolling.
>
> I'd suspect that in a very large database, by using one field of an
> appropriate size to store a string of 40 booleans, rather than 40
> tinyint fields, you could save some really appreciable room.

Cool :) Thanks!  I also think it will save not only space, but vertical 
size too.  A bunch of is_* columns can just get overwhelming.


From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 00:31:39 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 00:31:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
Message-ID: <2CF5E194-2134-490D-AA1A-FAC95D8BE04A@gmail.com>

> Hi David:
>
> > <?xml version="1.0" ?>
> > <document type="db download">
> >
> > <packages total_weight="15.8" total_packages="1">
> > <package length="147" width="5" height="5" weight="15.8"/>
> > </packages>
>
> That's not well-formed (valid) because there should be a closing
> </document> tag at the end.
>
>
> > I was expecting each attribute and node to have it's own <> and </ 
> >, and
> > the data not to be surround by double-quotes or am I missing  
> something?
>
> As others have mentioned, XML has "elements" (the stuff using <> and  
> </>)
> and "attributes" (the stuff inside the opening or empty element that  
> use
> the name="value" format).
>
> --Dan
>
> -- 
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>             data intensive web and database programming
>                 http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
As I mentioned in my original posting, this was a fragment.

David Roth

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From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 00:43:24 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 00:43:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid?
Message-ID: <F47EF70C-769D-4285-94F7-8D909523457B@gmail.com>

> No, it's not an older method. There is no absolute definition of  
> when to use
> elements versus attributes. There are, however, some attempts at  
> defining
> general principles:
>
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-eleatt.html
Thanks for the link and the code example, Mark. I certainly learned  
something here and realize my XML existence has been somewhat sheltered.

In the absence of no absolute definition, I propose we refer to the  
more common XML expected as "The Popular XML" version. :-)

I guess if approach XML as a programming language, then there are many  
methods to make use of it. I've thought of XML as I do HTML as being a  
format and not a programming language. I had a similar discussion  
years ago when someone argued that nroff was a language because it  
could do loops.

David Roth

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From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 01:31:34 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 01:31:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Is this XML valid? (Matt!)
Message-ID: <5301F490-06B7-4929-B623-3B1A23C52CB6@gmail.com>

> No, it's not an older method. There is no absolute definition of  
> when to use
> elements versus attributes. There are, however, some attempts at  
> defining
> general principles:
>
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-eleatt.html
Thanks for the link and the code example, Mark. I certainly learned  
something here and realize my XML existence has been somewhat sheltered.

In the absence of no absolute definition, I propose we refer to the  
more common XML expected as "The Popular XML" version. :-)

I guess if approach XML as a programming language, then there are many  
methods to make use of it. I've thought of XML as I do HTML as being a  
format and not a programming language. I had a similar discussion  
years ago when someone argued that nroff was a language because it  
could do loops.

David Roth

PS: Matt, not Mark. Sorry about that. :-)
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From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 11:35:16 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:35:16 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <4AB51E5E.3080508@nyphp.com>
References: <721f1cc50909190925m1205e214pd332a9937d6a7b78@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB51E5E.3080508@nyphp.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50909200835l374c6ae1le51508ac491beec9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Michael Southwell <
michael.southwell at nyphp.com> wrote:

> David Mintz wrote:
>
>> I have been using Dreamhost because it's cheap and provides what I need
>> and has a really weird and funny newsletter.
>>
>
> with the emphasis on weird ;-)
>
>
>> However, if you need a custom php.ini, the instructions are found at
>> http://www.wiki.dreamhost.com/index.php/PHP.ini with a great big
>> disclamer to the effect that if it suddenly breaks, you're on your own. Sure
>> enough, my little php app suddenly broke. Tore my hair out for a while, then
>> finally worked around.
>>
>
> I have had the exact same experience. When you say "worked around," do you
> mean that you couldn't solve the problem? What happened to me was that they
> changed something which meant that the default path to mail was no longer
> good, so I couldn't send mail; but when I finally figured that out, I fixed
> it by setting the path and the issue was over.
>


Within a particular subdir of the site, I wanted to auto_prepend a file
containing authentication logic, set my include_path to point to my personal
library, etc. I ended up sticking the path to my libs in $_SERVER via SetEnv
in a .htaccess so it wouldn't have to be hard-coded but once. Then I
manually edited the few files to require() my auth.php, rather than
auto_prepend it.

I would have cheerfully used "php_value foo bar" in my .htaccess for all my
initialization needs, but that technique evidently doesn't work when php is
in cgi mode.



>
>

>> Is the ability to customize your php.ini asking too much of a low-end
>> shared-hosting provider?
>>
>
> uhh, but in fact they did provide that for you (and me), no? They just
> don't provide any support for it.
>
>
I am having a polite little argument about that with them. I said, in
substance, OK, so what is the official way to set up one's own php.ini, and
they said we'll get back to you.

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From ajai at bitblit.net  Sun Sep 20 12:53:30 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 12:53:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50909200835l374c6ae1le51508ac491beec9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909201251150.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sun, 20 Sep 2009, David Mintz wrote:

> I am having a polite little argument about that with them. I said, in
> substance, OK, so what is the official way to set up one's own php.ini, and
> they said we'll get back to you.


I still think vservers (like linode.com) are a better way to go.

-- 
Aj.



From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 12:55:38 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 12:55:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909201251150.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <721f1cc50909200835l374c6ae1le51508ac491beec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909201251150.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <68de37340909200955u4011d4dfnbf8e79749a034e78@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009, David Mintz wrote:
>
>> I am having a polite little argument about that with them. I said, in
>> substance, OK, so what is the official way to set up one's own php.ini, and
>> they said we'll get back to you.
>
>
> I still think vservers (like linode.com) are a better way to go.
>
> --
> Aj.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>

I couldn't agree more.


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 14:25:45 2009
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:25:45 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <68de37340909200955u4011d4dfnbf8e79749a034e78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50909200835l374c6ae1le51508ac491beec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909201251150.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
	<68de37340909200955u4011d4dfnbf8e79749a034e78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380909201125o3d394f83g755b337c8f8b9154@mail.gmail.com>

maybe something here:
A Simple Shell Script to Create a Custom php.ini on Dreamhost?s Shared Host
http://www.foryourlungsonly.net/2009/07/28/a-simple-shell-script-to-create-a-custom-php-ini-on-dreamhosts-shared-host/

PS, in 2000 we paid $25,000 every 4 weeks to host our site.  I mean have to
give these guys a little bit of leeway, the prices are rock bottom.

If you have a serious site, you need to get a dedicated server.  I think the
issue with dreamhost, is no live support.  I think that's a MAJOR problem.
I'm surprised a company that brings in millions of dollars a month has not
tackled that.

Hostgator is fine by us, we have 100's of sites hosted there. ZERO problems.
Online support in 30 seconds or less.  Hard to top that.  :-)



On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Eddie Drapkin <oorza2k5 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 Sep 2009, David Mintz wrote:
> >
> >> I am having a polite little argument about that with them. I said, in
> >> substance, OK, so what is the official way to set up one's own php.ini,
> and
> >> they said we'll get back to you.
> >
> >
> > I still think vservers (like linode.com) are a better way to go.
> >
> > --
> > Aj.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
>
> I couldn't agree more.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
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From dan.horning at planetnoc.com  Mon Sep 21 09:06:13 2009
From: dan.horning at planetnoc.com (Daniel Horning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:06:13 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ADMIN - checking in on everything
Message-ID: <001401ca3abc$4d707a00$e8516e00$@horning@planetnoc.com>

Hey everyone,

 

I wanted to check in on everyone again and see how the list has been working
for you. I know a few months ago some issues cropped up and I wanted to make
sure they stay resolved.

 

Please let us know if anything isn't working - and just a reminder - we
always are happy to take any donation of any amount - just drop by the main
site - http://www.politicslists.com 

 

Thanks as always

 

--

Dan Horning

 

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.

dan.horning at planetnoc.com :: http://www.americandigitalservices.com

1-518-444-0213 x502 . toll free 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133

15 Third Street, PO Box 746, Troy, NY 12180 (by appointment only)

 

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From dan.horning at planetnoc.com  Mon Sep 21 09:12:06 2009
From: dan.horning at planetnoc.com (Daniel Horning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:12:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ADMIN - checking in on everything
In-Reply-To: <001401ca3abc$4d707a00$e8516e00$@horning@planetnoc.com>
References: <001401ca3abc$4d707a00$e8516e00$@horning@planetnoc.com>
Message-ID: <002801ca3abd$20109cb0$6031d610$@horning@planetnoc.com>

oops. wrong list completely

 

sooo sorry

 

 

--

Dan Horning

 

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.

dan.horning at planetnoc.com :: http://www.americandigitalservices.com

1-518-444-0213 x502 . toll free 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133

15 Third Street, PO Box 746, Troy, NY 12180 (by appointment only)

 

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Daniel Horning
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:06 AM
To: 'NYPHP Talk'
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ADMIN - checking in on everything

 

Hey everyone,

 

I wanted to check in on everyone again and see how the list has been working
for you. I know a few months ago some issues cropped up and I wanted to make
sure they stay resolved.

 

Please let us know if anything isn't working - and just a reminder - we
always are happy to take any donation of any amount - just drop by the main
site - http://www.politicslists.com 

 

Thanks as always

 

--

Dan Horning

 

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.

dan.horning at planetnoc.com :: http://www.americandigitalservices.com

1-518-444-0213 x502 . toll free 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133

15 Third Street, PO Box 746, Troy, NY 12180 (by appointment only)

 

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From dan.horning at planetnoc.com  Mon Sep 21 09:13:19 2009
From: dan.horning at planetnoc.com (Daniel Horning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:13:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] wrong list...... RE: ADMIN - checking in on everything
In-Reply-To: <001401ca3abc$4d707a00$e8516e00$@horning@planetnoc.com>
References: <001401ca3abc$4d707a00$e8516e00$@horning@planetnoc.com>
Message-ID: <003b01ca3abd$4a798bb0$df6ca310$@horning@planetnoc.com>

sorry

 

--

Dan Horning

 

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.

dan.horning at planetnoc.com :: http://www.americandigitalservices.com

1-518-444-0213 x502 . toll free 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133

15 Third Street, PO Box 746, Troy, NY 12180 (by appointment only)

 

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Daniel Horning
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:06 AM
To: 'NYPHP Talk'
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ADMIN - checking in on everything

 

Hey everyone,

 

I wanted to check in on everyone again and see how the list has been working
for you. I know a few months ago some issues cropped up and I wanted to make
sure they stay resolved.

 

Please let us know if anything isn't working - and just a reminder - we
always are happy to take any donation of any amount - just drop by the main
site - http://www.politicslists.com 

 

Thanks as always

 

--

Dan Horning

 

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.

dan.horning at planetnoc.com :: http://www.americandigitalservices.com

1-518-444-0213 x502 . toll free 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133

15 Third Street, PO Box 746, Troy, NY 12180 (by appointment only)

 

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From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Mon Sep 21 10:08:39 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:08:39 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ADMIN - checking in on everything
In-Reply-To: <002801ca3abd$20109cb0$6031d610$@horning@planetnoc.com>
References: <001401ca3abc$4d707a00$e8516e00$@horning@planetnoc.com>
	<002801ca3abd$20109cb0$6031d610$@horning@planetnoc.com>
Message-ID: <4AB788E7.8000501@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Daniel Horning wrote:
>
> oops? wrong list completely
>
> sooo sorry
>
Ah, but you made me laugh, Dan. Nice way to start a Monday. Ha!

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 10:23:20 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:23:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <c5949a380909201125o3d394f83g755b337c8f8b9154@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50909200835l374c6ae1le51508ac491beec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909201251150.2621-100000@bitblit.net>
	<68de37340909200955u4011d4dfnbf8e79749a034e78@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5949a380909201125o3d394f83g755b337c8f8b9154@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50909210723x4254bd5dn2434757744511525@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Edward Potter <edwardpotter at gmail.com>wrote:

> maybe something here:
> A Simple Shell Script to Create a Custom php.ini on Dreamhost?s Shared Host
> http://www.foryourlungsonly.net/2009/07/28/a-simple-shell-script-to-create-a-custom-php-ini-on-dreamhosts-shared-host/
>
>

That looks familiar -- I've seen it. It does essentially the same thing the
manual instructions do.



>
> If you have a serious site, you need to get a dedicated server.  I think
> the issue with dreamhost, is no live support.  I think that's a MAJOR
> problem.  I'm surprised a company that brings in millions of dollars a month
> has not tackled that.
>
>
@everyone else, thanks for the suggestions. Vserver indeed! really not all
that much more expensive than shared, is it. And linode.com looks like so
much fun, my mouth waters! (b/c my experience is limited to shared hosting
and a managing couple of in-house (internal) LAMP servers at work, and this
looks like the Real World)

Dreamhost got back to be and essentially said, FY, albeit politely.

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
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From ajai at bitblit.net  Mon Sep 21 12:32:36 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:32:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50909210723x4254bd5dn2434757744511525@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909211227460.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, David Mintz wrote:

> @everyone else, thanks for the suggestions. Vserver indeed! really not all
> that much more expensive than shared, is it. And linode.com looks like so
> much fun, my mouth waters!

Awhile ago I compared some of the vserver hosting providers and linode.com 
comes out on top (max bang for buck).

You can also build clusters with added private IPs - nodes can be in the 
same data center or you can ask to have them spun up in another of their 
data centers (currently, I think its CA, TX and NJ). Traffic between nodes 
using private IPs in the same data center doesn't count towards your 
(pretty generous) monthly bandwidth allowance.



-- 
Aj.



From leam at reuel.net  Mon Sep 21 18:27:29 2009
From: leam at reuel.net (Leam Hall)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:27:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SOA Definition/Explination?
Message-ID: <4AB7FDD1.3040807@reuel.net>

I'm posting this for a friend. She does some teaching for Systems 
Engineering. The big SE, not the MCSE type stuff. Her request is for a 2 
page introduction to SOA that's not in geekish.

If you're curious, INCOSE -- http://www.incose.org/

Thanks!

Leam

####

Does anyone know of a good top-level overview, geared toward systems 
engineers, of the Service-Oriented Architecture concept? (I.e. geared 
toward INCOSE-type SEs, not Microsoft-type SEs).

The Wikipedia entry isn't bad, but I'd love to have a concise 2-page 
discussion I can give out to my students. Unfortunately, most 
discussions, however much they try to be overviews, tend to aim for the 
web guru...things like "idempotent" "stateful service", "registry", 
"partition your usage scenarios", (even "maximizes business agility") 
make it difficult to read the overview if you don't already know what 
you are talking about, and I'm looking for an overview specifically for 
people who don't know what it means. I want them to start seeing how 
what they do does and does not already use SOA concepts, so they have to 
know what those concepts are without actually doing software development 
for the web.

####


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 19:43:06 2009
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:43:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SOA Definition/Explination?
In-Reply-To: <4AB7FDD1.3040807@reuel.net>
References: <4AB7FDD1.3040807@reuel.net>
Message-ID: <c5949a380909211643i5ef1d5e2y56a0671ba7db1fa3@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.emptybottle.org/bullshit/  :-)

Ok, if that does not cook it, think METAPHORS, based on HUMAN BEHAVIOR.
Don't have any handy at the moment, but that will do the trick.  Humans can
respond to something based on a metaphor 100X better then some techno BS.


:-)

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:

> I'm posting this for a friend. She does some teaching for Systems
> Engineering. The big SE, not the MCSE type stuff. Her request is for a 2
> page introduction to SOA that's not in geekish.
>
> If you're curious, INCOSE -- http://www.incose.org/
>
> Thanks!
>
> Leam
>
> ####
>
> Does anyone know of a good top-level overview, geared toward systems
> engineers, of the Service-Oriented Architecture concept? (I.e. geared toward
> INCOSE-type SEs, not Microsoft-type SEs).
>
> The Wikipedia entry isn't bad, but I'd love to have a concise 2-page
> discussion I can give out to my students. Unfortunately, most discussions,
> however much they try to be overviews, tend to aim for the web guru...things
> like "idempotent" "stateful service", "registry", "partition your usage
> scenarios", (even "maximizes business agility") make it difficult to read
> the overview if you don't already know what you are talking about, and I'm
> looking for an overview specifically for people who don't know what it
> means. I want them to start seeing how what they do does and does not
> already use SOA concepts, so they have to know what those concepts are
> without actually doing software development for the web.
>
> ####
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
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From al.ko at webfoundation.net  Tue Sep 22 12:16:37 2009
From: al.ko at webfoundation.net (Aleksey Korzun)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:16:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1253635202.3836.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1253635202.3836.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <656707536.20090922121637@webfoundation.net>

Hello,

   Just wanted to throw in another suggestion of using Rackspace Cloud
   (http://www.rackspacecloud.com/); specifically their Cloud Servers
   offering.

   That is, if you are looking for something more flexible. I think pricing
   wise it's not bad at all given some extra benefits you can gain
   using their 'platform'.

   You can also use their API to interact with cloud server(s):
   http://github.com/AlekseyKorzun/php-cloudservers ;)


-- 
Best regards,
 Aleksey   Korzun
 www.webfoundation.net                        mailto:al.ko at webfoundation.net



From paul at devonianfarm.com  Tue Sep 22 12:40:47 2009
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (Paul A Houle)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:40:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <656707536.20090922121637@webfoundation.net>
References: <mailman.1.1253635202.3836.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<656707536.20090922121637@webfoundation.net>
Message-ID: <4AB8FE0F.9030109@devonianfarm.com>

Aleksey Korzun wrote:
> Hello,
>
>    Just wanted to throw in another suggestion of using Rackspace Cloud
>    (http://www.rackspacecloud.com/); specifically their Cloud Servers
>    offering.
>
>   
    I still like the stability of just plain ordinary dedicated hosts.  
You just need one site that pulls in $250 a month to pay for hosting for 
a hundred smaller sites.  You can install the PHP and other software you 
want (right now I have a PHP 5.2 and a PHP 5.3 server running side by 
side),  and not deal with the weirdnesses that tend to exist with 
virtual servers:  for instance,  I used to be on a virtual server that 
did something strange that wouldn't let you compile GNU emacs.

    Six months ago I was running big batch jobs that took three days to 
run.  I was thinking about going to Amazon EC2,  Map/Reduce and all 
that.  Then I thought through the problem again,  compressed my data 
structures,  put all of the random-access stuff into RAM and found my 
three day jobs became 20 minute jobs.

    When my data set gets 100x bigger (maybe in 2012) I'll need to think 
about cloud computing again.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Wed Sep 23 10:32:08 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:32:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <4AB8FE0F.9030109@devonianfarm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909231031030.2621-100000@bitblit.net>

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Paul A Houle wrote:

> I used to be on a virtual server that 
> did something strange that wouldn't let you compile GNU emacs.

Funny, I have the exact opposite experience. I can build and run anything 
I like.



-- 
Aj.



From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 13:52:40 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:52:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <602c8ac0909181857l4585c805nc426f8b3b7cc9aed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info> <4A912A3D.2030005@reuel.net>
	<1d8a0e930909161234p5c612cdah953f06f9f410af3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB34FEB.3000408@reuel.net>
	<602c8ac0909181857l4585c805nc426f8b3b7cc9aed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60909231052v522fec0em4b0280a730a79776@mail.gmail.com>

Joomla 1.5 is actually a framework and three apps built with that
framework - the installer, the frontend, and backend.

I used the framework to build the quizilla website for MTV, and only
used what I needed - as a glue framework should be - and skipped
dynamic navigation, timezone support, internationalization, and a
bunch more.

-- Mitch

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Mutaz Musa <mutazmusa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> * glue frameworks - like Zend and Joomla 1.5
>
> Remember Joomla is a CMS not a framework. I've personally only ever used
> CodeIgniter and Cake. Both were fine though Cake was a bit stifling with the
> naming conventions. Documentation was good though and that made things
> easier. I'm going to try Zend for my next project because I like the idea of
> being able to use their classes on a needs-only basis. It seems more
> flexible and more enterprise ready. At least that's the vibe I get.
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
>>
>> Awesome!
>>
>> Adrian Noland wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/top-projects/php.html
>>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-php-read/
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyone up for drafting a "Recommended Learning Program" for PHP?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Leam
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>


From brenttech at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 14:52:19 2009
From: brenttech at gmail.com (Brent Baisley)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:52:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info>
Message-ID: <5d515c620909231152g5e269ef6qa1c417adf54105c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 3:44 AM, lists at nopersonal.info
<lists at nopersonal.info> wrote:
> Hello ladies & gentlemen,
>
> I've just purchased my first book on PHP Object-Oriented Programming and
> ?have also been looking at all the frameworks that abound. I'm unsure of
> where to go from here.

You should read the book. It will help you understand the frameworks,
how they work, and how to code them.
That said, all of the most popular frameworks add a fairly significant
amount of overhead. If you need to create a high performance site, be
prepared to jump into caching so the framework doesn't load on every
page hit.
Here is a kind of old report on benchmarking some frameworks to create
"Hello World".
http://avnetlabs.com/php/php-framework-comparison-benchmarks

While you won't be creating a "Hello World" web page, an Ajax call
would have similar processing requirements (not a lot of data, simple
request). You should now how to create simple pages outside of any
framework, for those simple solutions.

Brent Baisley


From yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com  Wed Sep 23 17:40:37 2009
From: yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com (Yitzchak Schaffer)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:40:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
Message-ID: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>

Hi all,

In sitting down to hack an ancient, bizarrely-indented Perl open-source 
project just now, I shot it through Perltidy, and was downright excited 
at the fact that the code is now somewhat comprehensible.

I remember having looked around for similar PHP projects, but nothing 
seemed fully-baked as Perltidy.  Anyone have a recommendation?

Many thanks,

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com


From lists at zaunere.com  Wed Sep 23 19:00:24 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:00:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
Message-ID: <10de01ca3ca1$a26eebe0$e74cc3a0$@com>

Hi all,

As a precursor to the Yahoo Hack Day (free event, see
http://icanhaz.com/yahoohacknyc for details and to register), we're pleased
to hold a special presentation by YDN's Tom Hughes-Croucher on Thursday,
October 8th (details to follow).

We have some options for the presentation topic, which I've outlined below.
Please provide feedback and votes on your favorite topic ASAP (either
discuss on list, or vote by emailing me directly).

Our options are:

   * Get any Web Data as if you are using SQL: a YQL quick-start guide
   * Accessibility: What, Why, How?
   * Mobile Data: how to avoid the latency trap when using web services

Thank you to Yahoo and Tom for making this possible, and we look forward to
your response.

---
Hans Zaunere / Managing Member / New York PHP



From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 19:42:59 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:42:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
In-Reply-To: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>
References: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <68de37340909231642n7fb9459p203eb1119d3463e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Yitzchak Schaffer
<yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> In sitting down to hack an ancient, bizarrely-indented Perl open-source
> project just now, I shot it through Perltidy, and was downright excited at
> the fact that the code is now somewhat comprehensible.
>
> I remember having looked around for similar PHP projects, but nothing seemed
> fully-baked as Perltidy. ?Anyone have a recommendation?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> --
> Yitzchak Schaffer
> Systems Manager
> Touro College Libraries
> 33 West 23rd Street
> New York, NY 10010
> Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
> Fax (212) 627-3197
> Email yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>

There's source formatting (which is what I think you mean) built into
Zend Studio; while not free, it's the only thing I know of that does
this.


From mutazmusa at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 20:32:09 2009
From: mutazmusa at gmail.com (Mutaz Musa)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:32:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
In-Reply-To: <68de37340909231642n7fb9459p203eb1119d3463e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>
	<68de37340909231642n7fb9459p203eb1119d3463e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <602c8ac0909231732l307d854eha775d8d4b4b47245@mail.gmail.com>

PDT for eclipse has the same feature. I'm not familiar with PerlTidy does it
do anything more than fix indentations, position curly brackets, etc.?

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Eddie Drapkin <oorza2k5 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Yitzchak Schaffer
> <yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In sitting down to hack an ancient, bizarrely-indented Perl open-source
> > project just now, I shot it through Perltidy, and was downright excited
> at
> > the fact that the code is now somewhat comprehensible.
> >
> > I remember having looked around for similar PHP projects, but nothing
> seemed
> > fully-baked as Perltidy.  Anyone have a recommendation?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Yitzchak Schaffer
> > Systems Manager
> > Touro College Libraries
> > 33 West 23rd Street
> > New York, NY 10010
> > Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
> > Fax (212) 627-3197
> > Email yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >
>
> There's source formatting (which is what I think you mean) built into
> Zend Studio; while not free, it's the only thing I know of that does
> this.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
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From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 23:25:38 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:25:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <330532b60909231052v522fec0em4b0280a730a79776@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info> <4A912A3D.2030005@reuel.net>
	<1d8a0e930909161234p5c612cdah953f06f9f410af3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB34FEB.3000408@reuel.net>
	<602c8ac0909181857l4585c805nc426f8b3b7cc9aed@mail.gmail.com>
	<330532b60909231052v522fec0em4b0280a730a79776@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6443591E-0A11-4130-8844-4E6933694D14@gmail.com>

There is this link about Joomla Frameworks:
http://docs.joomla.org/How_to_create_a_stand-alone_application_using_the_Joomla!_Framework

Wasn't there a presentation about using the Joomla Frameworks, that  
might be online?

David Roth

On Sep 23, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Mitch Pirtle wrote:

> Joomla 1.5 is actually a framework and three apps built with that
> framework - the installer, the frontend, and backend.
>
> I used the framework to build the quizilla website for MTV, and only
> used what I needed - as a glue framework should be - and skipped
> dynamic navigation, timezone support, internationalization, and a
> bunch more.
>
> -- Mitch
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Mutaz Musa <mutazmusa at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>>
>>> * glue frameworks - like Zend and Joomla 1.5
>>
>> Remember Joomla is a CMS not a framework. I've personally only ever  
>> used
>> CodeIgniter and Cake. Both were fine though Cake was a bit stifling  
>> with the
>> naming conventions. Documentation was good though and that made  
>> things
>> easier. I'm going to try Zend for my next project because I like  
>> the idea of
>> being able to use their classes on a needs-only basis. It seems more
>> flexible and more enterprise ready. At least that's the vibe I get.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Awesome!
>>>
>>> Adrian Noland wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/top-projects/php.html
>>>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-php-read/
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anyone up for drafting a "Recommended Learning Program" for PHP?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Leam
>>>



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Thu Sep 24 00:05:27 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:05:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
In-Reply-To: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>
References: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <20090924040527.GA10330@panix.com>

Hi Ytzchack:

> I remember having looked around for similar PHP projects, but nothing  
> seemed fully-baked as Perltidy.  Anyone have a recommendation?

There's a PEAR package that does this:
http://pear.php.net/package/PHP_Beautifier

I haven't used the current release, so can't vouch for it.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From lists at nopersonal.info  Thu Sep 24 01:28:26 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:28:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <5d515c620909231152g5e269ef6qa1c417adf54105c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info>
	<5d515c620909231152g5e269ef6qa1c417adf54105c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABB037A.40004@nopersonal.info>

Brent Baisley wrote:
> You should read the book. It will help you understand the frameworks,
> how they work, and how to code them.
> That said, all of the most popular frameworks add a fairly significant
> amount of overhead. If you need to create a high performance site, be
> prepared to jump into caching so the framework doesn't load on every
> page hit.
> Here is a kind of old report on benchmarking some frameworks to create
> "Hello World".
> http://avnetlabs.com/php/php-framework-comparison-benchmarks
> 
> While you won't be creating a "Hello World" web page, an Ajax call
> would have similar processing requirements (not a lot of data, simple
> request). You should now how to create simple pages outside of any
> framework, for those simple solutions.

Thanks, Brent. I'll be sure to add your advice & link to my notes.

Bev



From yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com  Thu Sep 24 12:25:09 2009
From: yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com (Yitzchak Schaffer)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:25:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
In-Reply-To: <602c8ac0909231732l307d854eha775d8d4b4b47245@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>	<68de37340909231642n7fb9459p203eb1119d3463e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<602c8ac0909231732l307d854eha775d8d4b4b47245@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABB9D65.5040603@gmx.com>

Mutaz Musa wrote:
> PDT for eclipse has the same feature. I'm not familiar with PerlTidy 
> does it do anything more than fix indentations, position curly brackets, 
> etc.?

Perltidy deals with spacing, brackets, various and sundry code style 
issues, see http://perltidy.sourceforge.net/stylekey.html

The granularity of config options is one of the cooler things about it, 
IMO - you can set it up for your shop's coding style.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 13:25:34 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:25:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on OOP & Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <6443591E-0A11-4130-8844-4E6933694D14@gmail.com>
References: <4A90F358.3010405@nopersonal.info> <4A912A3D.2030005@reuel.net>
	<1d8a0e930909161234p5c612cdah953f06f9f410af3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB34FEB.3000408@reuel.net>
	<602c8ac0909181857l4585c805nc426f8b3b7cc9aed@mail.gmail.com>
	<330532b60909231052v522fec0em4b0280a730a79776@mail.gmail.com>
	<6443591E-0A11-4130-8844-4E6933694D14@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60909241025u5b5477f8mf92ef23e1404cdb3@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure about any presentations, but you can look at the installer
app in the standard Joomla 1.5 download to see the simplest version of
a framework app.

-- Mitch

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:25 PM, David Roth <davidalanroth at gmail.com> wrote:
> There is this link about Joomla Frameworks:
> http://docs.joomla.org/How_to_create_a_stand-alone_application_using_the_Joomla!_Framework
>
> Wasn't there a presentation about using the Joomla Frameworks, that might be
> online?
>
> David Roth
>
> On Sep 23, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Mitch Pirtle wrote:
>
>> Joomla 1.5 is actually a framework and three apps built with that
>> framework - the installer, the frontend, and backend.
>>
>> I used the framework to build the quizilla website for MTV, and only
>> used what I needed - as a glue framework should be - and skipped
>> dynamic navigation, timezone support, internationalization, and a
>> bunch more.
>>
>> -- Mitch
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Mutaz Musa <mutazmusa at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> * glue frameworks - like Zend and Joomla 1.5
>>>
>>> Remember Joomla is a CMS not a framework. I've personally only ever used
>>> CodeIgniter and Cake. Both were fine though Cake was a bit stifling with
>>> the
>>> naming conventions. Documentation was good though and that made things
>>> easier. I'm going to try Zend for my next project because I like the idea
>>> of
>>> being able to use their classes on a needs-only basis. It seems more
>>> flexible and more enterprise ready. At least that's the vibe I get.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Awesome!
>>>>
>>>> Adrian Noland wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/top-projects/php.html
>>>>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-php-read/
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Leam Hall <leam at reuel.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone up for drafting a "Recommended Learning Program" for PHP?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leam
>>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From anoland at indigente.net  Fri Sep 25 01:50:56 2009
From: anoland at indigente.net (Adrian Noland)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:50:56 -0600
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
In-Reply-To: <4ABB9D65.5040603@gmx.com>
References: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>
	<68de37340909231642n7fb9459p203eb1119d3463e3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<602c8ac0909231732l307d854eha775d8d4b4b47245@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4ABB9D65.5040603@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <1d8a0e930909242250p3186d80apf8e6a32f4fcb0a97@mail.gmail.com>

For code style there is Code Sniffer, also in pear.

http://pear.php.net/package/PHP_CodeSniffer

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Yitzchak Schaffer <
yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com> wrote:

> Mutaz Musa wrote:
>
>> PDT for eclipse has the same feature. I'm not familiar with PerlTidy does
>> it do anything more than fix indentations, position curly brackets, etc.?
>>
>
> Perltidy deals with spacing, brackets, various and sundry code style
> issues, see http://perltidy.sourceforge.net/stylekey.html
>
> The granularity of config options is one of the cooler things about it, IMO
> - you can set it up for your shop's coding style.
>
>
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From lists at zaunere.com  Fri Sep 25 07:42:29 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:42:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
In-Reply-To: <10de01ca3ca1$a26eebe0$e74cc3a0$@com>
References: <10de01ca3ca1$a26eebe0$e74cc3a0$@com>
Message-ID: <14fa01ca3dd5$433d9c40$c9b8d4c0$@com>

All,

We've gotten a limited response and I encourage people to take advantage of
this opportunity to pick a topic from a top Yahoo developer.  We will be
submitting the topic this afternoon.

H



> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
> bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Zaunere
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:00 PM
> To: 'NYPHP Talk'
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> As a precursor to the Yahoo Hack Day (free event, see
> http://icanhaz.com/yahoohacknyc for details and to register), we're
pleased
> to hold a special presentation by YDN's Tom Hughes-Croucher on Thursday,
> October 8th (details to follow).
> 
> We have some options for the presentation topic, which I've outlined
below.
> Please provide feedback and votes on your favorite topic ASAP (either
> discuss on list, or vote by emailing me directly).
> 
> Our options are:
> 
>    * Get any Web Data as if you are using SQL: a YQL quick-start guide
>    * Accessibility: What, Why, How?
>    * Mobile Data: how to avoid the latency trap when using web services
> 
> Thank you to Yahoo and Tom for making this possible, and we look forward
to
> your response.
> 
> ---
> Hans Zaunere / Managing Member / New York PHP





From kkrutoi at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:50:04 2009
From: kkrutoi at gmail.com (Konstantin K)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:50:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
In-Reply-To: <14fa01ca3dd5$433d9c40$c9b8d4c0$@com>
References: <10de01ca3ca1$a26eebe0$e74cc3a0$@com>
	<14fa01ca3dd5$433d9c40$c9b8d4c0$@com>
Message-ID: <7173a2fc0909251050r71f7b0ccxb0655b7d8b6ddcc3@mail.gmail.com>

Mobile data

On Friday, September 25, 2009, Hans Zaunere <lists at zaunere.com> wrote:
> All,
>
> We've gotten a limited response and I encourage people to take advantage of
> this opportunity to pick a topic from a top Yahoo developer. ?We will be
> submitting the topic this afternoon.
>
> H
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
>> bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Zaunere
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:00 PM
>> To: 'NYPHP Talk'
>> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> As a precursor to the Yahoo Hack Day (free event, see
>> http://icanhaz.com/yahoohacknyc for details and to register), we're
> pleased
>> to hold a special presentation by YDN's Tom Hughes-Croucher on Thursday,
>> October 8th (details to follow).
>>
>> We have some options for the presentation topic, which I've outlined
> below.
>> Please provide feedback and votes on your favorite topic ASAP (either
>> discuss on list, or vote by emailing me directly).
>>
>> Our options are:
>>
>> ? ?* Get any Web Data as if you are using SQL: a YQL quick-start guide
>> ? ?* Accessibility: What, Why, How?
>> ? ?* Mobile Data: how to avoid the latency trap when using web services
>>
>> Thank you to Yahoo and Tom for making this possible, and we look forward
> to
>> your response.
>>
>> ---
>> Hans Zaunere / Managing Member / New York PHP
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:54:00 2009
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:54:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0909251050r71f7b0ccxb0655b7d8b6ddcc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10de01ca3ca1$a26eebe0$e74cc3a0$@com>
	<14fa01ca3dd5$433d9c40$c9b8d4c0$@com>
	<7173a2fc0909251050r71f7b0ccxb0655b7d8b6ddcc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29da5d150909251054j3fb5337bwabdafe34274d13fa@mail.gmail.com>

Mobile data

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Konstantin K <kkrutoi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mobile data
>
> On Friday, September 25, 2009, Hans Zaunere <lists at zaunere.com> wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > We've gotten a limited response and I encourage people to take advantage
> of
> > this opportunity to pick a topic from a top Yahoo developer.  We will be
> > submitting the topic this afternoon.
> >
> > H
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
> >> bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Zaunere
> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:00 PM
> >> To: 'NYPHP Talk'
> >> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> As a precursor to the Yahoo Hack Day (free event, see
> >> http://icanhaz.com/yahoohacknyc for details and to register), we're
> > pleased
> >> to hold a special presentation by YDN's Tom Hughes-Croucher on Thursday,
> >> October 8th (details to follow).
> >>
> >> We have some options for the presentation topic, which I've outlined
> > below.
> >> Please provide feedback and votes on your favorite topic ASAP (either
> >> discuss on list, or vote by emailing me directly).
> >>
> >> Our options are:
> >>
> >>    * Get any Web Data as if you are using SQL: a YQL quick-start guide
> >>    * Accessibility: What, Why, How?
> >>    * Mobile Data: how to avoid the latency trap when using web services
> >>
> >> Thank you to Yahoo and Tom for making this possible, and we look forward
> > to
> >> your response.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Hans Zaunere / Managing Member / New York PHP
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
Brian O'Connor
-------------- next part --------------
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From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 14:06:02 2009
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:06:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Reading Dublin Core Nodes from Google Books XML
Message-ID: <a9caffe50909251106pfe78cfchcefa843ddda9499f@mail.gmail.com>

I am having a terrible time trying to read Dublin Core nodes from a
Google Books XML file. You can see the basic structure here:

http://code.google.com/apis/books/docs/gdata/developers_guide_protocol.html#SearchingForBooks

Here is the code that I am working with:

$address = "http://books.google.com/books/feeds/volumes?q=$q&as-isbn=$isbn";
$page = file_get_contents($address);
//
$xml = new SimpleXMLElement($page);
$item=$xml->entry[0];
$dc=$item->children("http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/");
echo $dc->creator;

The XML is read just fine, but when I get to the DC elements, I get
nothing. I am stumped.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From lists at zaunere.com  Fri Sep 25 14:19:42 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:19:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Yahoo Special Presentation - Topic Selection
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0909251050r71f7b0ccxb0655b7d8b6ddcc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10de01ca3ca1$a26eebe0$e74cc3a0$@com>	<14fa01ca3dd5$433d9c40$c9b8d4c0$@com>
	<7173a2fc0909251050r71f7b0ccxb0655b7d8b6ddcc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15f901ca3e0c$c0b111c0$42133540$@com>

>>> ? ?* Get any Web Data as if you are using SQL: a YQL quick-start guide
>>> ? ?* Accessibility: What, Why, How?
>>> ? ?* Mobile Data: how to avoid the latency trap when using web services

Thanks all, Mobile Data it is.

H




From greg at freephile.com  Wed Sep 30 00:06:11 2009
From: greg at freephile.com (Greg Rundlett (freephile))
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:06:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
Message-ID: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>

I'm architecting the next-generation platform for web development at
my company.  I need to connect to a MSSQL Server for copying our data
feed, and use PostgreSQL and MySQL locally.  I'm looking at Symfony
for application development and Drupal for Content Management plus
functionality that fits well with the Drupal way.  So, I expect that
for the foreseeable future, I'll have a mixed DB environment.

I see that Symfony uses PDO [1], which in turn has drivers for
PostgreSQL and MySQL but the driver for MSSQL is marked
'experimental'.

I'm wondering what approaches people have found successful and tips or
advice in this area (mixed DB environments including MSSQL).

For example, since I may also develop OpenOffice applications that
interact with the PostgreSQL database through an ODBC driver, I am
thinking using the PDO ODBC [2] driver to connect to MSSQL might also
be better than using the 'experimental' MSSQL driver.  I would like to
avoid using specific extensions if possible (i.e. MSSQL extensions to
PHP) since I'd like the code to be more cross-platform, simple, and
easy.

Thanks

[1] http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Introduction/Requirements
[2] http://us2.php.net/manual/en/ref.pdo-odbc.php

Greg Rundlett

nbpt 978-225-8302
m. 978-764-4424
-skype/aim/irc/twitter freephile
http://profiles.aim.com/freephile


From ajai at bitblit.net  Wed Sep 30 11:51:07 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:51:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301149430.12948-100000@bitblit.net>

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Greg Rundlett (freephile) wrote:

> For example, since I may also develop OpenOffice applications that
> interact with the PostgreSQL database through an ODBC driver, I am
> thinking using the PDO ODBC [2] driver to connect to MSSQL might also
> be better than using the 'experimental' MSSQL driver.  I would like to
> avoid using specific extensions if possible (i.e. MSSQL extensions to
> PHP) since I'd like the code to be more cross-platform, simple, and
> easy.

Are you plannng to use the ORM layers in symfony? If you do, then you will 
have to use PDO.



-- 
Aj.



From ajai at bitblit.net  Wed Sep 30 11:54:21 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:54:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Greg Rundlett (freephile) wrote:

> [1] http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Introduction/Requirements

BTW, FYI, Doctrine is destined to become the default ORM for symfony from 
1.3 onwards (1.3 alpha was released a few days ago so its a safe bet it 
will be released in the next few months). So you may want to look at using 
Doctrine for your project.

Oh, before I forget:
http://trac.symfony-project.org/wiki/HowToConnectToMSSQLServer


-- 
Aj.



From lists at zaunere.com  Wed Sep 30 14:14:21 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:14:21 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] ConFoo - Call for Papers
Message-ID: <060e01ca41f9$d58adc70$80a09550$@com>

Hi all,

Our friends to the north are working on what appears to be a bigger/better
PHP Quebec conference.

They are actively looking for speakers and have personally invited NYPHP
members to submit talks, etc.  Please see additional information below, and
be sure to check out their site, www.confoo.ca.

H

-------------------------------------------
PHP Quebec, Montreal-Python, Ruby Montreal, W3Qc, and OWASP Montreal are
organizing the first edition of the ConFoo.ca conference for Web
technologies, which will be held in Montreal on March 10th through 12th, at
the prestigious Hilton Bonaventure Hotel.

We are looking for the best international speakers willing to share their
experience and skills with programmers, managers and marketers.

The conference is divided into two parts:

A technical part, encompassing different aspects of Web development: PHP,
Python, Ruby, security, CMSs and frameworks, databases, systems
administration, Web standards, accessibility and agile methods.

A management part: project management, referencing (SEO), Web marketing
analysis, and social networking.

The call for papers is open until November 13th. For more information
regarding the conference and call for speakers, visit the conference website
at http://www.ConFoo.ca



From greg.rundlett at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 18:06:17 2009
From: greg.rundlett at gmail.com (G Rundlett)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:06:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Greg Rundlett (freephile) wrote:
>
>> [1] http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Introduction/Requirements
>
> BTW, FYI, Doctrine is destined to become the default ORM for symfony from
> 1.3 onwards (1.3 alpha was released a few days ago so its a safe bet it
> will be released in the next few months). So you may want to look at using
> Doctrine for your project.
>
> Oh, before I forget:
> http://trac.symfony-project.org/wiki/HowToConnectToMSSQLServer
>

Thanks

Greg Rundlett

nbpt 978-225-8302
m. 978-764-4424
-skype/aim/irc/twitter freephile
http://profiles.aim.com/freephile


From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 18:48:26 2009
From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (Guilherme Blanco)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:48:26 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>

And surely... if you have any doubts....

There're a huge documentation, 2 mailing lists, 1 IRC channel... and
my contact that you can pick! =D
I'm one of the core developers of Doctrine! =P

Cheers,

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:06 PM, G Rundlett <greg.rundlett at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Greg Rundlett (freephile) wrote:
>>
>>> [1] http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Introduction/Requirements
>>
>> BTW, FYI, Doctrine is destined to become the default ORM for symfony from
>> 1.3 onwards (1.3 alpha was released a few days ago so its a safe bet it
>> will be released in the next few months). So you may want to look at using
>> Doctrine for your project.
>>
>> Oh, before I forget:
>> http://trac.symfony-project.org/wiki/HowToConnectToMSSQLServer
>>
>
> Thanks
>
> Greg Rundlett
>
> nbpt 978-225-8302
> m. 978-764-4424
> -skype/aim/irc/twitter freephile
> http://profiles.aim.com/freephile
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480
MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
S?o Paulo - SP/Brazil


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 21:27:20 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:27:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>

Not to hijack the thread, but whatever came of PDO?

I know there was that whole PDO-vs-MDB thang and then MDB2 and
whatever, and never bothered to keep up. Now I got no idea what
happened.

-- Mitch, blushing ever so slightly

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:48 PM, Guilherme Blanco
<guilhermeblanco at gmail.com> wrote:
> And surely... if you have any doubts....
>
> There're a huge documentation, 2 mailing lists, 1 IRC channel... and
> my contact that you can pick! =D
> I'm one of the core developers of Doctrine! =P
>
> Cheers,
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:06 PM, G Rundlett <greg.rundlett at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Greg Rundlett (freephile) wrote:
>>>
>>>> [1] http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Introduction/Requirements
>>>
>>> BTW, FYI, Doctrine is destined to become the default ORM for symfony from
>>> 1.3 onwards (1.3 alpha was released a few days ago so its a safe bet it
>>> will be released in the next few months). So you may want to look at using
>>> Doctrine for your project.
>>>
>>> Oh, before I forget:
>>> http://trac.symfony-project.org/wiki/HowToConnectToMSSQLServer
>>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Greg Rundlett
>>
>> nbpt 978-225-8302
>> m. 978-764-4424
>> -skype/aim/irc/twitter freephile
>> http://profiles.aim.com/freephile
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
> CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
> Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480
> MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
> URL: http://blog.bisna.com
> S?o Paulo - SP/Brazil
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


From greg.rundlett at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 22:50:00 2009
From: greg.rundlett at gmail.com (G Rundlett)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:50:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
In-Reply-To: <602c8ac0909231732l307d854eha775d8d4b4b47245@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com>
	<68de37340909231642n7fb9459p203eb1119d3463e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<602c8ac0909231732l307d854eha775d8d4b4b47245@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5e2aaca40909301950h45a1899bv58aa9034ef93afab@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Mutaz Musa <mutazmusa at gmail.com> wrote:
> PDT for eclipse has the same feature.

Can you explain or point to how to make PDT clean up / format the PHP
source?  I was actually trying to integrate PHP_beautifier into PDT
today because I wanted to clean the source.  I didn't see how to get
PDT to format source on it's own (except for formatting HTML
attributes and such) and actually it didn't do too well with
PHP_beautifier in the sense that I couldn't find a variable to
substitute the file that I'm editing (It works on the file selected in
the navigation pane).

--
Greg Rundlett

nbpt 978-225-8302
m. 978-764-4424
-skype/aim/irc/twitter freephile
http://profiles.aim.com/freephile


From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 23:01:32 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:01:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>
	<330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68de37340909302001i1ceb1e3cx79d12b6c8e3cc8a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not to hijack the thread, but whatever came of PDO?
>
> I know there was that whole PDO-vs-MDB thang and then MDB2 and
> whatever, and never bothered to keep up. Now I got no idea what
> happened.
>
> -- Mitch, blushing ever so slightly
>

It's been moved into the PHP core, is still actively developed and is
generally considered the future of database interaction in PHP.